Breaking: Wal-Mart Workers Granted Union Status In Saskatchewan

I can hardly wait to see what sort of propaganda comes from the evil empire central(aka head office). As a CUPE brother in BC I say stick to your guns for your first contract. And if Walmart tries to shut you down, stockpile what you need and go for the sitdown strike like your UEW brothers and sisters at the window plant in Chicago.
Fight hard and Good Luck

Mike the Canuck: And for the ultimate irony ,the name of the firm [of the window plant ]is called Republican Windows.Cosmic,truly cosmic.

Walmat made a very bad mistake when they took on the Canadian labour laws.  They are actually enforced there.  It is a sad day for walmart.  I wonder how much wages they could have paid with all the legal fees fighting the union?

This is Canada and union activity is not going to stop.
Walmart will fight but we will fight back and we will never back down.  We will not stop.

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
G A T I N E A U
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

All I can do is echo Eric’s words…

Congrats to all the workers involved...

I might expand it to include the entire country.

Hey, Mexico, you see what’s going on north?

I wonder how much wages they could have paid with all the legal fees fighting the union?

There is a Sam Walton quote from his book Made In America that goes something like thia (I’m paraphrasing here since the quote has pretty much been expunged from the web.)

If you treat your associates well you won’t have to spend your money on lawyers to fight the unions.

Anyone with a copy of Sam’s book have the exact quote?

Live Better In Cheap Underwear

Well done Weyburn! All stores should organize. Imagine all the medical equipment WalMart could of bought for some hospital but they chose to pay the lawyers. Misery sure does breed company of the same sort eh?

Merry Christmas WalMart.

Ken,

It went like this-

“...take care of your people, treat them well, involve them, and you won’t spend all of your time and money hiring labor lawyers to fight the unions.” (p. 130-131)

“On the other hand, let me say this: anytime we have had real trouble, or the serious possibility of a union coming into the company, it has been because management has failed, because we have not listened to our associates, or because we have mistreated them.” (p. 130)

Both quotes from Sam Walton in his book Sam Walton, Made in America: My Story by Sam Walton with John Huey, published by Doubleday 1992 (credit and thanks again to Screwed).

Ponder this:

Joe Smith started the day early having set his
alarm clock

(MADE IN JAPAN ) for 6am.
While his coffeepot

(MADE IN CHINA )

was perking, he shaved with his

electric razor

(MADE IN HONG KONG ).

He put on a

dress shirt

(MADE IN SRI LANKA ),

designer jeans

(MADE IN SINGAPORE )

and

tennis shoes

(MADE IN KOREA )

After cooking his breakfast in his new

electric skillet

(MADE IN INDIA )

he sat down with his

calculator

(MADE IN MEXICO )

to see how much he could spend today. After setting his

watch

(MADE IN TAIWAN )

to the radio

(MADE IN INDIA )

he got in his car

(MADE IN GERMANY )

filled it with GAS

(from Saudi Arabia )

and continued his search

for a good paying job.

At the end

of yet another discouraging

and fruitless day

checking his

Computer

(Made In Malaysia ),

Joe decided to relax for a while.

He put on his sandals

(MADE IN BRAZIL )

poured himself a glass of

wine

(MADE IN FRANCE )

and turned on his

TV

(MADE IN INDONESIA ),

and then wondered

why he can’t find

a good paying job- In America

Bet he wishes past & current generations would have listened when the preaching “buy American” “buy Union Made” was going on!

Why is there no unions in the United States and why are the wal-mart workers treated so bad when they want to move on to a better position mainly women.

Good for Walmart!

Walmart does more for its consumers each day than any government do-gooder could ever dream.  Because of Walmart, people can afford to buy the things they need without a government coupon.

Here’s to the end of unions, the dregs of our society and the biggest stupid tax next to the lottery.

...without a government coupon...

You have a government coupon, Nick, you just can’t see it.

“There are a lot of issues here, but what they add up to is the end of the age of Wal-Mart,” contends Richard Hastings, a senior analyst for the retail rating agency Bernard Sands. “The glory days are over.”

My “stupid tax” gets me a $10/hr MORE plus $16/hr in benefits over the non-union employee.  This stupid tax is $32 a week.  The way I figure it.....non union employees are paying $1,008 (400+640=1040-32=1008) a week “stupid tax.” I pay mine with a smile every time.

Wal-Mart start paying,

“My “stupid tax” gets me a $10/hr MORE plus $16/hr in benefits over the non-union employee.”

I thought you said you have been laid off for about 4 months!!  Are you STILL getting that “$10/hr MORE plus $16/hr in benefits”, than your ‘working’ non-union counterparts?

I’m not buying that they were making $20 an hour working retail in Wisconsin either.  I’m curious where the $16/hour in benefits comes from as well.  I’m guessing union propaganda, but I’m not buying it.

Dave,

Wal-Mart start paying, is comparing ‘un-skilled’ retail wages with the wages of ‘skilled’ Electricians, in other words, ‘Apples with Oranges’!!

RDS-

Not comparing apples to oranges comparing my trade to my trade.  The comment was dues are a stupid tax.

What “working” nonunion counterparts.  What about my working union counterparts?  Construction in Wisconsin in December?  There is always unemployment.  Add in the economy and its a wonder more of us (union and non-union)aren’t unemployed.  Look around you do you see alot of high dollar construction going on.  Last year alone there were 15 towercranes set up for construction in Madison, WI.  Driving through there now I see 2 and they are on the same site!

Time to use some common sesns now, Construction workers in the Midwest get laid off in the winter months in good economies.

Plus that $10/hr more that I got when I was working ammounts to 20,000/year.  Up until now I have been laid off for a total of 7 weeks in the last five years that means that I made an extra $96,800 in the time I was working.  So, Yeah I can probably afford to stay unemployed longer than the other guy.  I still have a savings account, which I haven’t touched by the way, after 4 months of layoff.  I am going out on a limb here but if you want to compare, I am guessing that a non-union electrician could do that.  And I have a family of 5. There ARE some advantages of a union.

Wal-Mart start paying,

“Not comparing apples to oranges comparing my trade to my trade.”

As this site is about Wal-Mart, try comparing Wal-Mart’s wages with Target or K-Mart’s wages!!

“Look around you do you see alot of high dollar construction going on.”

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is ‘plenty’ of ‘high dollar’ construction going on here, today it was about 50 degrees, one of those projects was mentioned here, the Target store in Rogers!!

“Up until now I have been laid off for a total of 7 weeks in the last five years that means that I made an extra $96,800 in the time I was working.”

Here’s the problem, you union people brag about how much MORE that you have, but, complain about people who have MORE than you do, saying they make too much!!

“There ARE some advantages of a union.”

Yes, but at the expense of others!!  Really, your not much different than you claim Wal-Mart to be!!

You never did say where you got the $16 an hour number from.  Now that you say your an electrician I’m curious where you got the $10 an hour number from as well.  Did you ask your one non union friend what he made and base everything on that?

Ever heard of The Davis-Bacon Act.  You know the one Bush TRIED to suspend after Hurricane Katrina.  In order to set a prevailing wage you have to report your wages and benefits to the state.  This information is public record.  We have many “organized in” members as well.  We are not trying to hide anything we publish our pay scale. www.ibew159.org click the compensation link.  This is what you will see.

INSIDE WAGE RATE FOR ELECTRICAL WORKERS IN LOCAL 159
Base Rate
$31.00* Annuity (25%) $7.75 Health Insurance $7.21
NEBF (3%) (2nd retirement account) $0.93
Vacation 0 or 7% deduct
Total Package $46.89
*Increase effective 6-1-09 $1.70, 6-1-10 $1.70

To be fair I AM NOT A RESIDENTIAL WIREMAN.  I do not wire houses I am a Commercial Wireman (Inside).  However I can wire houses.  I am certified to do so, they just are not certified to do my job, not enough training.

So, do not compare my salary to your buddy electrician who wires houses.  Compare me to the guy wiring the new Target in Rogers.

I am not saying there are not non-union guys making this wage or more, they too have good electricians, and they are compensated as such.  But that is the exception and not the rule.

On a side note
RDS-

We saw 8 degrees yesterday and the temp is only going to drop.  We wont see 50 degree days for 4 months!

Target stores are not high dollar construction.  Maybe for AR., but that store will be done in 2 months.  The construction projects I am talking about, that I usually am on, Are 250-500 million dollar projects employing hundreds of people for multiple years.  THAT is “high dollar” construction.  Now that I have redefined ..... do you see any of that going on?

“Here’s the problem, you union people brag about how much MORE that you have, but, complain about people who have MORE than you do, saying they make too much!! “

I DON’T CARE IF THEY HAVE MORE THAN ME!  IT’S JUST THAT IF THEY ARE GOING TO GET IT OFF MY LABOR, I AM GOING TO GET MY SHARE.

Everyone knows you will never get rich working for someone else.  However, that doesn’t mean I have to go poor working for them either.

Wal-Mart start paying,

“The construction projects I am talking about, that I usually am on, Are 250-500 million dollar projects employing hundreds of people for multiple years.  THAT is “high dollar” construction.  Now that I have redefined ..... do you see any of that going on?”

It would be hard for me to judge, how much any single project would cost, mainly because things cost less in this area!!  We just had a ‘new’ hospital built in Fayetteville, which might qualify, but mostly, it’s Banks, Businesses, and multi-family housing projects, with maybe 20 to 30 buildings housing 16 families each, there are probably 6 or 7 of those going up!!  Lastly, there are many private home subdivisions going up all around the area!!

Keep warm, those 20 below days are coming!!  And, I hope you don’t have too much SNOW!!  Also, I hope the Packers can get it together and start winning some more games, I’m a big Packer fan!!

Maybe I missed it, but I failed to see the non union rate that you used to base your $10 an hour on, and apparently in your world non union electricians get -$.11 in benefits an hour.  I’m not sure how they can get negative benefits, but I’d like to hear your explanation.  Do they have to pay union dues for nothing like a lot of their retail counterparts and that is how they get -$.11 in benefits?

Dave-
“Maybe I missed it, but I failed to see the non union rate that you used to base your $10 an hour on”

prevailing wage surveys reported to the state and people I talked to.

My benefits are on Top of my check.  Not dueductions. They are not matched 401k, and employee paid health insurance plan.  My hourly wage is what I actually get.

Yes your health benefits are a negative if YOU have to deduct payment (even partial) out of your paycheck, because it LOWERS your take home pay.

“prevailing wage surveys reported to the state and people I talked to. “

None of your prevailing wage reports that you gave showed wages for nonunion electricians and talking to a few people hardly gives you a good average for nonunion electricians. 

“My benefits are on Top of my check.  Not dueductions. They are not matched 401k, and employee paid health insurance plan.  My hourly wage is what I actually get.”

I understand how benefits work.  I’m just not buying that your non union counterparts have absolutely no benefits. 

“Yes your health benefits are a negative if YOU have to deduct payment (even partial) out of your paycheck, because it LOWERS your take home pay.”

Ahh there are so many holes in this statement.  First of all did you deduct your union dues from your benefits?  Second you can’t count your insurance as a benefit, and then count theirs against them. You’re essentially counting your insurance twice which is bad math, and most employers pay for at least part of it.  Walmart who is supposedly terrible for health insurance pays for 67% of the health insurance last I heard.  So you would have to count the 67% that the employer pays as a benefit.  Also you would have to count the amount the company contribution to the 401k plan as a benefit if you are counting your pension as a benefit. All of this ads up to more than -$.11

An Encounter With Hogs On The Road To Alabama»

According to an article in the New York Times, a typical salary in the Smithfield Packing slaughterhouse in Tar Heel, NC is $11.90 per hour, or $476 for a 40 hour week. Because I am a considerate person, I will spare you any description of the grisly jobs performed by those workers in that slaughterhouse.

The base salary of a U.S. senator is $169,300 a year or $3,255 a week. Because I am a considerate person, I will spare you any description of the job some of those senators are doing on us these days.

The slaughterhouse story in the New York Times looked back on the 16-year long struggle to bring union representation to the 5,000 or so workers in Tar Heel, which ended up in court at one point. In 2006, after seven years of litigation, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled that Smithfield had engaged in “intense and widespread” coercion and ordered Smithfield to reinstate four union supporters it found were illegally fired, one of whom was beaten by the plant’s police on the day of the 1997 election.

The court also said Smithfield had engaged in other illegal activities: spying on workers’ union activities, confiscating union materials, threatening to fire workers who voted for the union and threatening to freeze wages and shut the plant.

But the big news in the Times story, especially if you pack meat, was that after the long struggle with Smithfield, the union finally won. The slaughterhouse is going union.

On the same day MSNBC had a story about a GOP memo titled “Action Alert,” which went out to the Republican senators just before their “No” vote on the Big Three Auto Makers bailout bill. The GOP memo contained this pithy paragraph:

This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.
[cont,]

It has been a longstanding part of the conservative’s core philosophy that unions are simply bad for business. That is why is why conservatives who are making $169 K per year for standing around arguing, just can’t understand why someone who is making the princely salary of $24,752 for working 40 hours a week in a slaughterhouse would ever want to join a union. It could eat into a company’s profits. Never mind that as a non-union hog butcher, you may bring home a little bacon, but good luck sending your kids to college.

The Federal Poverty guideline for 2008, sets $22,200 as the poverty level for a family of four. Those who do the hard spirit killing, tendon ripping work of slaughtering hogs, forty hours a week, 52 weeks a year, are just barely, faintly above the poverty level.

So just who are these people the GOP sees as the enemy? These awful, greedy, lazy Union people?

If you take a look at the largest unions in the U.S., you will see that they are teachers, hotel workers, truck drivers, laborers, electrical workers, machinists, communications workers, letter carriers, firefighters, nurses, sheet metal workers, bakers and bricklayers. They are all people who shouldn’t have to listen to lectures from men in expensive shoes about the American work ethic.

And, given the recent global meltdown, no one is particularly interested in taking advice on an economic plan from the people who have been steering the Titanic for the past 8 years. Especially since the news on the availability of lifeboats does not appear to be happy news.

I also suspect it must be especially galling for the people of Michigan to hear the senator from Alabama go on and on about how Detroit needs to get more in line with Alabama. That’s because ‘Bama ranks 47th in median household income in the U.S, 47th for Infant mortality rates and 47th in fourth graders who scored at or above the proficient level in math. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Yes, the mantra for the conservatives this in this past election cycle was more or less: “At least you aren’t all dead!” It looks like moving forward it going to be along the lines of: “Dream of an America like Alabama - only colder!” Good luck with that.

– Barry Nolan

Dave-

http://www.dwd.state.wi.us/pwsrv/PwsrvDetail.asp

Lets take the HIGHEST non-union contractor on this page.

Base wage $26/hr Fringe Benefits $6.58.
$26 x 40 hours a week x 52 weeks = 54,080/yr
$6.58 x 40 x 52 = $13,686.40

54,080 + 13,686.40 = 67,766.40/yr wages and benefits

Now lets take the LOWEST on the page
Base wage $17/hr Fringe Benefits $1.93/hr
yearly wages 35,360
yearly fringe 4,014.40
yearly total 39,374.40

Why such a big discrepency ($28,392)? Aren’t they doing the same job?

Now those with union representation
$30/hr $16.05 benefits
yearly wages $62,400
yearly benefits $33,384
yearly total $95,784

Working dues 3.5% $2,184/yr Basic dues $309/yr
yearly wages MINUS DUES 62,400 - 2493 = $59,907
$59,907 + 33,384 = $93,291

Union - highest = $25,524.60/yr or $12.27/hr less (yearly difference/2080) (2080=52 40 hour weeks)
Union - lowest = $53,916.60/yr or $25.92/hr less

12.27+25.92=38.19 38.19/2=19.10

So the AVERAGE non union person is making $19.10 an hour total less.

Aren’t we all doing the same job.  Why such a discrepency in pay.  If my contractors are making a profit (and they are) imagine the profits the other contractors are making OFF THE LABOR OF THEIR EMPLOYEES.  The non-union sector charges the same labor rates to the customers as the union sector does.  In this area it is $72-$75/hr. 

The arguement IS NOT whether an employer is allowed to make a profit.  They have to, or nobody works.  The arguement is how much of a profit is enough.  Our contractors work at a 3-3.5% profit margin.  What does that make the profit margin of the contractor who pays his guys $25/hr less than the other guy and STILL charges the $72-$75/hr.  YES the union sets the rates people charge, wouldnt it be SMART business for the non-union sector to charge $60/hr.  Logic would say you would get all the work.  Why don’t they?  Because they are GREEDY.  They LIKE THE HUGE PROFIT MARGIN.  They actually have to do less jobs to make the same amount of money.

And what kind of benefits are the employees getting for $77.20 a week?

Interesting note.  Of the right to work states only 13 of the bottom 20 elementary scores came from these states.  11 of these schools at the middle school level.  As opposed to 6 of these schools in the top 20 for elementary and middle schools.  Maybe a little more wages would increase money influx into these schools, and their scores would go up.

The lowest I saw for nonunion for your country was $19.50.  Most were in the mid twenties.  Which is $5 an hour less than the $30 that the union workers made not $10 like you were claiming in your original statment.  Just so you know taking the lowest nonunion is not taking the average.  Also you said $15 an hour more in benefits, but the non union made $7 to your $15 which is $8 an hour difference.  Also only 19 of the 66 jobs listed on that page were union which means that the nonunion ones are getting more work.  What I don’t understand is why union people think everyone should be making the same.  If one electrician can get something done in less time and do a better job than he should make more an hour since he is saving money them money by not billing them for as many hours.

Sorry, should have specified I was on the Dane county page.
This is the county I work in.  99.9% of all my work is done in this county.  So that is where I went.  And there are 831 cases reported.  To be fair I only looked at the first 100.

To make sure we are looking at the same search
http://www.dwd.state.wi.us/pwsrv/PwsrvList.asp?county=025&year=2008&JobClass=109&ProjectType=A&Cba=BOTH&WhiteSheet=BOTH

search parameters
survey year = 2008
project type = building or heavy construction
job group = skilled trades
job class = 109 Electricians
County = Dane
White Sheet = both
CBA = both

Pay close attention to the number of man hours for each job as well.  The union has 68 jobs of more than 2,000 man hours.  The non-union has 2.  They are for 2,222 and 1500 man hours.  While the unions top jobs are (ROUNDED DOWN) 62,000...58,000...38,000...38,000...36,000...and 25,000.  That is pretty conclusive to the fact that the non-union sector is not a factor in dane county.  Those jobs alone total 257,000 man hours.  That means 6 of the unions 720 jobs provided more hours than ALL of the 101 jobs.

101 out of 831 jobs were reported non-union.  That is 12.2% of the work.

At least we are looking at the same information now.  I apologize for the inconvenience.

Look at BROS13-RESTURAUNT REMODEL.  That is where I got the $17/hr job.

Also in the interest of fairness....The highest is
$40.00/hr $12.24/fringe...if I remember right this was a company out of Indianapolis that were computer systems specialist, but they WERE non-union.

I put the AVERAGE in there because the “pro’s” on this site say that there is a 60% turnover rate at walmart.  So therefore they (the new hires are going to be below the average) make less than the average of $10/hr.

(see my posts on manipulating the average).  That was a joke!  You either didn’t read those posts, or you didn’t get the joke.

Wal-Mart start paying,

“Our contractors work at a 3-3.5% profit margin.”

Isn’t that exactly what the Wal-Mart ‘profit margin’ is?  Wouldn’t RAISING their LABOR costs ($3.00/hr as suggested), LOWER that ‘profit margin’ to about 1-1.5%, if it lowered their overall profit by 50% ($12 billion - $6 billion?  How can a company remain sustainable with only a 1-1.5% profit margin?  In recession times, LESS than that would not be enough to keep the company afloat!!  The automakers are in trouble, with an even higher profit margin!!

So you picked the liberal county with more union ties rather than your home county?  Maybe we should check Milwaukee county next.  Since they don’t have a name listed as who the project was for, it would be interesting to see how many of the union ones were for the cities which in a lot of cases are forced to hire union contractors.  Also you still haven’t explained why all electricians deserve the same hourly pay.  If I can get the job done in half the time as you and still do it just as well, then I deserve a higher hourly rate.  Being guranteed $30 an hour no matter how fast you work would tend to make a lot of people not try to get the job done very quickly.  Lastly, saying companies like Walmart would benefit from unions because electricians make more in liberal counties is hardly a sound argument.  Your own post said that nonunion electricians are not a factor in Dane county.  Having a monopoly on the work force for an area is going to help your bargaining power, but this is a lot harder to do in jobs that have less training and skill required.

Dave-

I would pick my county ........ If I worked in it!
I put 30,000 miles a year on my vehicle to drive to Dane county so of course I am going to use it.

“Being guranteed $30 an hour no matter how fast you work would tend to make a lot of people not try to get the job done very quickly.”

The Overature Center in Madison was a two phase project that was supposed to be a 7 year project.  All labor on the project was Union and it was completed in 3 1/2.  We too pride ourself on our workmanship, in quality AND cost effectiveness.

“Having a monopoly on the work force for an area is going to help your bargaining power....”

Duh, that is the point of a union.  The more the better.  Keep it up pretty soon you will be arguing my point for me.

“Also you still haven’t explained why all electricians deserve the same hourly pay..”

I never did, keep in mind the union wage is a MINIMUM we have plenty of guys making MORE than that.  If a guy is a “money maker” for a company he should be compensated as such.

You haven’t explained why it is okay to UNDERPAY skilled labor.

RDS-

1.5% profit margin is still 6 billion.  This is still an obscene number.  Not that they shouldn’t make a profit, but there has to be a number where one doesn’t look at it and go WTF?
They won’t be applying for food stamps any time soon.  We are still talking about $6 BILLION dollars in profit.  That is still 16.438 million dollars a day.  Not too shabby.

Wal-Mart start paying,

“I would pick my county ........ If I worked in it!”

I was wondering how a city like Baraboo, with a population of under 10,000, had projects of $250 to $500,000!!

“I put 30,000 miles a year on my vehicle to drive to Dane county”

Bet that put a big dent in you budget, when the gas prices were up to $4/gal.!!

“You haven’t explained why it is okay to UNDERPAY skilled labor.”

It is only UNDERPAYING, when YOU set the standard!!  Underpaying is usually, paying LESS than what people are willing to work for!!

“1.5% profit margin is still 6 billion.  This is still an obscene number.”

It is not ‘obscene’, when you consider the fact that Wal-Mart is a world-wide company with over 2.1 million employees!!  Your contractor makes more per employee, than Wal-Mart does, do you consider their profits ‘obscene’?  Besides, does your contractor have to ‘share the profits’ with millions of stockholders or do the owners get it all?  Remember, Wal-Mart doesn’t keep all those profits in a vault in the back room of the HQ!!

“Not that they shouldn’t make a profit, but there has to be a number where one doesn’t look at it and go WTF?”

Now you know how people feel when they hear that the auto-workers make $73/hr (wages, benefits and legacy), it kind of makes THEM say, “WTF?”!!

““Having a monopoly on the work force for an area is going to help your bargaining power....”

Duh, that is the point of a union.  The more the better.  Keep it up pretty soon you will be arguing my point for me”

So monopolies are ok if they are unions but bad if they are corporations?  The fact that most of that area is forced to hire union electricians because of their connections with other unions is just plain messed up.  The thing is that way of strengthening unions only works as long as the people in the area are so connected to unions they are willing to pay more for their services.  That doesn’t really work well in the retail field.  Assuming Walmart went union and actually gave their employees more because of it and had to raise prices to make up for it, their shoppers would be more than happy to go to Target.  The only way that Walmart workers would gain anything without risking unemployment would be if all their competitors were to be unionized as which most likely isn’t going to happen.  In reality union do very little good for unskilled jobs that require no training because there are too many other people that could be doing the job.  That is the reason the UFCW workers have the same pay or worse than Walmart’s, but somehow the unions don’t start any Jewel watch sites or cry about all their workers that are on food stamps.  I wonder why that is.

RDS-

“Besides, does your contractor have to ‘share the profits’ with millions of stockholders or do the owners get it all?  Remember, Wal-Mart doesn’t keep all those profits in a vault in the back room of the HQ!!”

60% of all walmart stock is owned by the Waltons or HIGH executives in wal-mart.

That means they are only “sharing” 40% of those profits.
Which accounts for 1.5 billion dollars.  They currently pay $0.95/share annual dividend.

“I was wondering how a city like Baraboo, with a population of under 10,000, had projects of $250 to $500,000!! “

We have that construction...all over the place...I was referring to 250,000,000 to 500,000,000.

“It is only UNDERPAYING, when YOU set the standard!!  Underpaying is usually, paying LESS than what people are willing to work for!!”

When I was young and single I had a non-union job that paid better than most for what I was doing.  The raises were pretty good.  My insurance was paid as a single policy.  Then I got married.  I needed family insurance, they didn’t offer it.  I applied for and was offered another job.  When I gave my two weeks notice, I was asked why I was leaving.  So I told them I needed the family coverage, and more money, as I was supporting more than myself. I was asked how much it would cost for me to stay.  I said family coverage, and $3/hr raise.  The owner didn’t even have time to blink befroe he said done, welcome back.  MY POINT TO THIS IS......if he was WILLING to pay me this wage, why did I have to quit to get it.  He didn’t even think about it.  In retrospect, I always wondered how high he would have went in raise before he had to think about it.  If I was WORTH it (obviously to him I was as he was willing to pay it) why wasn’t I getting it in the first place?  So I was obviously UNDERPAID by at least $3/hr. 

That is the advantage a union has.  I don’t have to go “beg” for a raise. 

And 60% of our contractors are “union electricians” themselves.  A couple of the contractors I have worked for push the union harder than the union itself.  The conception that all employers don’t want a union is a myth.  By the way those contractors who pushed the union the hardest were the best to work for.  They were the most organized, with the best working conditions.  No surprise they are also 2 of the biggest and most profitable companies in the state. 

Dave-

Epic center of Verona- 700 million dollar project.....owner request ONLY UNION LABOR.  Why, because she had both before.  The timeline and the quality.

“The fact that most of that area is forced to hire union electricians because of their connections with other unions is just plain messed up.”

Non-union contractors outnumber the union contractors in Dane County by almost 2-1. (there are 147 contractors liscences.  I believe there are just under 60 union conrtactors. Yet they only have a 10% market share.  Why is that?

RDS-

“We have that construction...all over the place...I was referring to 250,000,000 to 500,000,000.”

Sorry, we HAD that.  Not much going on at all, our area hit pretty hard by economy.  Banks tightening up purse strings, people finding it harder to get financing.  Not much construction going on at all around here now.  Didn’t mean to be misleading.

Wal-Mart start paying,

“MY POINT TO THIS IS......if he was WILLING to pay me this wage, why did I have to quit to get it.”

How often do YOU pay MORE than you have to for something?  When you decided to quit, you were saying that you felt your labor was worth more and your employer agreed!!  Did you really have to ‘beg’, if he didn’t have to think about it?  Sometimes you have to stand up and ASK for what you feel you are worth!!  With a union, you are only worth what the union SAYS you are, based on what the workers as a group are worth!!  In other words, the ‘average’!!  You admit, that it didn’t take a union, for you to get what you wanted, so why PAY someone to get what you could get on your own?  If you are a ‘good’ ‘valuable’ worker, you will always be rewarded for it, it is the ‘poor’ ‘slacker’ that keeps wages down, when wages are the same across the board and a company has a hard time getting rid of them because of rules and laws, unions set up the rules and laws!!  I have seen unions where you could come to work DRUNK and couldn’t be fired for it!!  At American Motors, the workers used to go to lunch at a bar and drink 2 to 3 ‘scooners’ of beer and then go back to work, if they were driving a car, they would be DUI!!  Our Teamsters union local would have ‘free beer’ at the meetings, then whip the drunken members into a frenzy with a ‘fire and brimstone’ type speech, to get them to agree on a STRIKE!!

“I was referring to 250,000,000 to 500,000,000.”

Sorry, I meant to say millions, my fault!!

Gee, and WalMart didn’t even NEED to serve free beer to whip their shoppers into a frenzy on Long Island, on that Door Buster Black Friday!

ddrb,

“Gee, and WalMart didn’t even NEED to serve free beer to whip their shoppers into a frenzy on Long Island, on that Door Buster Black Friday!”

You are right, the ‘idiots’ did it all on their own!!  Wal-Mart didn’t have to do anything, except open the doors, like they do everyday, customer ‘greed’ took over from there, when the ‘me first’ mentality appeared!!  A thing called “Common Sense”, caused me to stay in bed and out of harms way, that Friday!!

...the ‘idiots’...

Duh! I’ve always maintained the people that shop at Wal-Mart are idiots.

I see fertile ground for a reality show. No holds barred shopping. Sort of The Running Man with a shopping cart! Pamplona has nothing on us.

Behind a fence topped with razor wire just off U.S. Highway 71 is a bunker of a building that Wal-Mart considers so secret that it won’t even let the county assessor inside without a nondisclosure agreement.

“That is the advantage a union has.  I don’t have to go “beg” for a raise. “

The problem is if you personally are worth more than your coworkers under most contracts you can’t get a better raise as it is against the contract.  In your current job if you needed $3 more an hour and quit there would be nothing they could do which is why unions are great for average to below average workers, but not good at all for above average workers. 

I know that area quite well and there are a lot of people in that area that will only hire union people simply because they are so prounion.  That is the only reason why there is such a big difference which is obvious by the fact that the county you live in has more jobs for nonunion than it does union.  The same is true for most of the large liberal cities in America.

Ken V,

“Duh! I’ve always maintained the people that shop at Wal-Mart are idiots.”

What were you saying about ME painting with a ‘broad brush’?

Dave-

“The problem is if you personally are worth more than your coworkers under most contracts you can’t get a better raise as it is against the contract.  In your current job if you needed $3 more an hour and quit there would be nothing they could do which is why unions are great for average to below average workers, but not good at all for above average workers. “

The wage in my contract is a MINIMUM they can pay me.  There is no language against paying me more, as many of our “deserving” members, are paid above this wage.  I have personally been in this situation with some employers.  So your statement that it is “against the contract” is false.

“....That is the only reason why there is such a big difference which is obvious by the fact that the county you live in has more jobs for nonunion than it does union.”

The county I live in is too busy cheating high school and college kids out of overtime.  If you know this area as well as you say you do, then you know all about Wisoconsin Dells.  In their own advertising, they promote themselves as a year round destination now, due to the construction of all the indoor water parks there.  HOWEVER, they claim to the state that they are SEASONAL employers, thereby they can not pay overtime for any hours in a week worked over 40.  The average work week for these people during the “peak” season. Memorial Day to Labor Day, is 60 hours a week.  90% of this workforce is 16-22 years old.  Now none of the locals are willing to work under these working conditions.  So what do these employers do?  Bring in 10,000 overseas college students.  If the market and labor supply dictates the wages, wouldn’t one assume if you can’t get workers under these conditions, that the conditions would change?  Nope they went out and found a workforce.  So much for the workers ability to affect the wage.

To quote Bill Maher “The illegal immagrants aren’t doing the jobs we are unwilling to do, they are doing the jobs we are unwilling to do for $6/hr.”

I don’t blame those people at all for coming here looking for jobs.  As I have stated before I WOULD DO THE EXACT SAME THING IF I WAS IN THEIR POSITION, however I do blame the companies for hiring these people, thereby EXPLOITING, thier labor.

That may be true for electricians contracts, but retail contracts apparently are different.  I’ve seen several retail contracts and they do not allow random raises like that.  The problem with your prounion views is they come from an entirely different world than what retail employees like Walmart associates would deal with in a union.  Go to your nearest unionized grocer, though I don’t think there are many in Wisconsin, and ask them how much they are making and how great their union is and then get back to me.

I guess I was wrong about the not many unionized grocers in Wisconsin.  According to one site Pick N Save is unionized, and so are Kohl’s grocery stores though I’m not sure there are any left.  I found this quote amusing, “Union members earn from $6.50 to $12.75,” wow they’re rich. 

“Baggers at Jewel start at $6.55 an hour, according to the
union contract. Wal-Mart?s lowest paid workers earn $7.25 an hour.” I found that quote in an article about the big box ordinance in Chicago.  http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/clips/2006/07/24/stakesCHICAGOTRIBUNE.pdf So by joining a union Walmart employees could give up $.70 an hour and get to pay union dues.

Dave-

Woodman’s is also unionized.  If you give up .70/hr in wages and get $400 worth of insurance would you do it?

($400 is just a number I threw out there, I don’t actually know what it is, I do know however that $400 doesn’t get you the greatest plan out there.)

And if the stores could SAVE so much by the union coming in, why do they spend so much money and time fighting them?

Maybe, because they would pay OVERTIME for hours worked over 8 in a day.  Or, maybe they would have a weekend premium.  Or, maybe a shift premium.  Or maybe, the wages they give up they pay in benefits.  I can have a lower wage if my benefits are paid for me, and I don’t have to take them out of my check.

And if the walmart employees give up .70/hr and pay dues, MAYBE they wouldn’t have to wait 2 YEARS to get sick.  And maybe they would have an insurance plan they would use instead of medical insurance from the state.  Maybe they also wind up with a retirement plan.  Maybe if they don’t have a $3000 deductible on health insurance, that money they actuallly make goes farther.  Maybe they won’t get disciplined for taking time off to care for sick family members.  (With the money they make, missing a days pay is punishment enough.) Maybe indiscriminate firing (read because I don’t like you) will be reduced, because now you have to have just cause.  Maybe you have a GRIEVANCE procedure if you are wronged. MAYBE JUST MAYBE.

First of all you can get unsurance through Walmart with premiums of less than $10 a paycheck which is about the same as most union dues, and many unionized grocers are starting to have to pay a part of their premiums as well.  http://www.hullhealthcare.com/news/20031012.php
“The new contract gives workers a 45 cent-an-hour raise in each of the first three years. Meanwhile, single union workers will pay $2 a week in the first year for health insurance, rising to $6 in the third year. Those with families will pay $6 a week in year one and $18 a week, or $936 a year, by year three.” Walmart has $.60 raises and lower premiums than what will end up being $12 for a two week pay period after only three years in this contract. 

Second I worked for a unionized store and they didn’t even have overtime for over 8 hours worked in a day.  Also the two year wait for health insurance is only for part time employees and many unionized retailers also have reduced benefits for part timers.  As far as the firing for no reason goes, most Walmarts go out of their way to keep people because they don’t want the person to get unemployment because that costs Walmart money so that really isn’t a concern.  Most of your arguments of what is so terrible about Walmart come straight from sites like this that don’t take the time to get the truth. 

As far as why they fight unions, they fight them because they are a hassle.  You have to worry about strikes which are very bad for the bottom line, and in many cases the unions want to be involved in decision on who gets promoted which is just bad business.

Dave-

“As far as the firing for no reason goes, most Walmarts go out of their way to keep people because they don’t want the person to get unemployment because that costs Walmart money so that really isn’t a concern.”

Walmart already pays unemployment insurance premiums.  The unemployment is ALREADY PAID before ANYBODY is ever laid off or fired.  The only way their premiums go up is if they excede the industry standard, thereby increasing the ammount paid out on their behalf.

“First of all you can get unsurance through Walmart with premiums of less than $10 a paycheck which is about the same as most union dues, and many unionized grocers are starting to have to pay a part of their premiums as well. “

I am also aware of this.  However if you have a $3000 deductible that makes the payment go up by $57.69/week.

I am also aware that you can get insurance for as little as $250 a year at walmart.  HOWEVER if you take that insurance you have a $4,000 deductible and are responsible for up to $10,000 in medical expenses.  So theoretically if the “average” employee as walmart claims makes 20,000 a year 70% of that could be spent on medical expenses.  Which means they really aren’t covered at all.

Having insurance, and having insurance you can afford to use is two different things.

Dave-

While it may have been a typo, you were EXACTLY right you CAN get “unsurance” at walmart.

Boo: Touche’! Dave,the “WalMathemagician” has been hoisted on his own “unsurance” petard...wonder what the deductible is on that personal injury?

“Walmart already pays unemployment insurance premiums.  The unemployment is ALREADY PAID before ANYBODY is ever laid off or fired.  The only way their premiums go up is if they excede the industry standard, thereby increasing the ammount paid out on their behalf. “

I understand how the insurance works.  As frugal as Walmart is you really don’t think that they do everything in their power to make sure that their stores stay in the lowest insurance premium class possible?  I do everything I can to keep my insurance rates as low as possible so I guarantee Walmart does the same. 

“I am also aware that you can get insurance for as little as $250 a year at walmart.  HOWEVER if you take that insurance you have a $4,000 deductible and are responsible for up to $10,000 in medical expenses.  So theoretically if the “average” employee as walmart claims makes 20,000 a year 70% of that could be spent on medical expenses.  Which means they really aren’t covered at all”

You need to get better information. First of all the deductible counts towards the out of pocket maximum which means even if your scenario was correct it would be 50% of their pay not 70%. 

For $11.60 a paycheck you can get insurance with a $1000 deductible and a $2000 maximum, and Walmart puts $100 in your HSA.  That means the absolute most you would pay between premiums and your copays is $2200 which is slightly less than your $10000.  While paying 10% of your earnings on health care would suck, it is far better than going bankrupt from health care expenses.  I’m still looking to find more information on UFCW health insurance premiums.  What I have found is that at least one local makes employees wait 18 months for coverage even if they are full time which is weird because they bash Walmart for making part timers wait two years.  Apparently the fact that Walmart makes them wait an extra 6 months, even though with Walmart it is only part timers and with the UFCW it is all the workers in that classification, makes all the difference in the world.  The only union insurance plan that I saw had caps on their coverage that were relatively low.  I would rather have insurance that made me pay $2000 a year out of pocket and covered EVERYTHING else than have insurance that covered the first $100,000 and made me pay for everything else.  While $2000 might hurt a little it is managable.  One major surgery with a long hospital stay and the $100,000 max of the union would be gone in a hurry, and that hundreds of thousands I would have to pay would do more than hurt a little.

DAVE-

“http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/walmart/health.html”

Does the Wall Street Journal count as a cedible source?

Read the article.

“Wal-Mart has a limited benefit plan, called Starbridge.

Fast-Growing Health Plan Has A Catch: $1,000-a-Year Cap

Employees Pay $10 or So Weekly, for Basics That Provide Little Help for Serious Illness

By CHAD TERHUNE
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

For legions of Americans with no health insurance, a policy known as “limited benefit” sounds like an appealing choice. Premiums are often only about $10 a week. But there’s a big catch: For basic medical care, it often pays only $1,000 a year—so little that some question whether it amounts to health insurance at all..........”

More “unsurance”.

Walmart would have the only insurance on the face of the earth that count premiums toward out of pocket expense.

“What I have found is that at least one local makes employees wait 18 months for coverage “

HOORAY YOU FOUND ONE LOCAL.....I FOUND 7,300 STORES THAT MAKE THEM WAIT TWO YEARS

Starbridge is only meant to be coverage during an employees waiting period it is not an example of their insurance.  The one local I found with the waiting period was the only one I found that had information on their medical insurance.  I’m guessing there are many more with the same rules since they are all under the same union, but apparently unions don’t want to know the public to know how crappy their insurance and pay is since they don’t have any information on these things on the internet.

Your information on Walmart’s waiting period is wrong the waiting period for full time is six months which is the same as most unions and the waiting period for part time is only a year which a lot of unions don’t even offer health insurance or many other benefits to part timers.  So it appears as though, once again, the unions have worse coverage than Walmart even though they bash Walmart for theirs.

销售<a >焊管</a>、厚壁焊管、销售焊管等。<a >无缝管</a>、厚壁无缝管，销售无缝管等。专业<a >精密铸造</a>产品，以最专业的精密铸造理论，生产<a >精密铸造</a>工艺，包括铸造分类，铸造行业现状，<a >铸造</a>专业名词，砂型铸造等。

Hey, Dave, didn’t you post a while back that WalMart was doing serious cutbacks on the NUMBER of full-time (Non Management)associayes it has on the payroll,now and in the future?

BTW: When Scott was crowing on MTP about adding new jobs at WalMart,I don’t remember him specifying that those were FULL time jobs.

No I never posted that they were cutting back on full time jobs.  Someone may have posted it as me, since that seems to be a popular thing to do among the antiWalmart people.  It’s a rumor on these hate sites, but you obviously can’t believe everything you read here.  Not all the jobs are full time.  No retail store or grocer is 100% full time.  When the majority of those type of jobs rely on students and semi-retired people a lot for cashiers, sales floor associates, and people greeters obviously a lot of them aren’t going to work full time, and since the stores are busier on the weekends there is going to have to be some part timers to staff those shifts.