From Think Progress: Oprah Tackles Minimum Wage Crisis

who are these worthless people trying to support a family on minimum wage?  That is so lazy and irresponsible.  I dont know who they are but I know why they cant do any better… They are waiting for government to do something for them.  These people are worthless.  Minimum wage jobs are for high school kids.
I wish the people on this site would realize that you dont pay someone based on cost of living, you pay them based on the value they provide.  I know that is going to get some of you going.

It is right on her part to talk about issue of minimum wage. But wage depends upon the work u do. Why is she wasting her time and energy. Wages don’t depend upon the cost of living. There is lower limit of everything.

“these people who work mininum wage jobs deserve way more than $5.15, thats a joke “

Depends on the job, depends on the skills, depends on the worker. Some deserve more, many deserve less.

When they can’t make ends meet, this should be handled by the weldare system. By forcing companies to give away money to workers who don’t earn it, you are causing “pain” elsewhere: fired workers, raised prices, poor service. I’d rather pay Uncle Sam to take care of it than have minimum wage laws make it so you can’t get service at a store.

Good idea coherent
Lets ge rid of minimum wage. Lets get people on welfare. Lets ease the strain on the Waltons 82 billion dollar worth. Lets pay Lee Scott 30 million instead of 22 million this year.

Maybe we can come up with some more great ideas.
Lets keep pushing to support the communist system of China.
In fact we have an opportunity right on our doorstep. Lets setup and import manufacturing from Cuba. After all, why should we support are own people and our own standard of living when we could get more of these ‘deals’ from those taken advantage of. Hell lets just bring back slavery.

Some people are nothing but idiots.

So is it the goverments fault for not having a higher minimun wage?  or is it the peoples fault for not being able to find a job that pays higher? 

Is it the goverments fault for failing to educate people enough?  And since the government has failed them, they should make it up to them and just pay them a higher wage regardless?

So if everyone should have a law degree (for that better job) and those who stock shelves should not have a living wage, whatj do we do when everyone gets that higher education(as if it is that easy and everyone has that opportunity) resulting in high end jobs? Do we get robots to do manual labor? Do we just bring in illegal workers from Mexico (I think that has been done before)?

IF THE WORLDS LARGEST COMPANY CAN NOT PROVIDE JOBS THAT SUPPORT PEOPLE, THAT COMPANY SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTED.

“IF THE WORLDS LARGEST COMPANY CAN NOT PROVIDE JOBS THAT SUPPORT PEOPLE, THAT COMPANY SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTED.”

If you work and get paid, you are being supported. What you want to do with the money is your choice.

“and those who stock shelves should not have a living wage”

They should earn a wage equal to their work. That’s an honest wage. Whether or not it is a living wage depends on the life they are living. One wage does not fit all work and all lifestyles.

But you are correct when you said it was a good idea to get rid the minimum wage. Anyone who is being paid higher than they would be otherwise due to the minimum wage IS on welfare. That’s the fact you don’t realize. I’d rather pay taxes and have the govenrment provide welfare than pay higher prices and deal with worse service because the “minimum wage” forces companies to give away welfare.

“Lets pay Lee Scott 30 million instead of 22 million this year. “

I’m not his boss. That’s their business, not mine.

“Hell lets just bring back slavery. Some people are nothing but idiots. “

You certainly were being idiotic when you made the leap from my request that people be paid an honest wage all the way to slavery.

no one has mentioned inflation

duh

9 years???

wake up

So should a stocker get a slice of bread and a glass of water an hour?
Make sure there is no ice in it. That would increase the cost.
Do you think the slaves got paid what they were worth?

Who decides what the work is worth?  People who do some of the worst, most intensive work, and/or the most important work to benefit society are usually paid the worst and vice versa.  Seriously, who the hell do you think you are?  What do you guys who are making this claim do for a living?  Why is it worth more?  I doubt that you guys are doing any form of manual labor, so what is it?  Why is sitting at a deck and using a computer worth more than digging ditches, or even being a firefighter or a cop (an honest one)?  You act as if people that work for a living are asking for free hand outs while they sleep on the couch all day.  Can every single person in society be a Doctor, Lawyer, business owner, etc?  No.  That’s not how our system works anyway.  Why is some work worth an obscenely high amount (that usually doesn’t require much effort) and other work worth an obscenely low amount (that usually requires extreme effort)?  Why is there THAT much of a discrepency between, say, someone who works in an office position and someone who breaks their back digging ditches?  The people on here are acting as if there is some scientific method or logical rationale behind what a job is “worth” (in reality it’s usually just their snobby and elitest superiority complex coming into play).  Okay, you went to school, you have skills, etc.  So, in reality, 9 times out of 10, it’s that you PAID to have a higher position, not that you actually worked harder, and usually what social class you were born into and what opportunities you were given, and who you know.  So, who decides what work is “worth”?  It’s what those with the money decide that they feel like paying (obviously they pay people in similar positions to them more).  This is your idea of freedom?  Hmmmm.

By the way, before anyone accuses me of thinking that Doctors shouldn’t make more than Wal-Mart employees, this is not the case and I think that I made my position clear.

Oh, we know people’s time has value to it. The value of the work they are doing at that time can vary wildly, too: from person to person, and between different tasks for the same person. That is a fact that cannot be ignored.

the slave asked: “Who decides what the work is worth?”

The same as any deal: the two people making the deal decide what it something is worth in trade. They are the only two who have any idea what something is worth. Anyone else is just making a wild guess. Anyone else has NO IDEA what it is worth, and has no business meddling. It is just not their business at all, not their affair. Only the two involved in a deal can decide if it is fair or not, or if it is “obscene”. Chances are, if it is unfair or obscene, the terms will be changed until it is fair, or the deal will not be completed.

So if you “skilled” workers are earning what you think you are worth, why do you give a dam what a Wal-Mart worker makes. What is the threat to you?
The spread is not large enough?
Do you want to have a car worth 3 times the Wal-Mart worker instead of 2 times?
Do you not pick up enough women? Would you pick up more if your wallet seemed much thicker than manual labor workers?

If your paid enough, what is it to you what the next guy makes?

I worked my way through college.  Many of friends elected to go on to work.  As a result, I am much better off than they.  I now have some grandkids, that it looks like they will never graduate from high school, let alone college.  In spite of the fact that I love them, I have have no sympathy for them.  They will end up in lower paying jobs, probably all of their life.  What is even worse is that they will not even be able to compete for the lower paying jobs which have moved off shore.

It has been my experience that most high paid people earned their jobs.  There are exceptions, but with a little work, then maybe my children can benefit from my efforts.

Come on, coherent, that’s a load of bull.  This is something that affects all of society, it is not a private transaction made between two people.  People that are desperate will work for low amounts - this doesn’t make it right.  If there is no minimum wage, then businesses could just all decide to pay $2.00 an hour, $1.00, $7.00, etc, and people would be FORCED to take these jobs because there wouldn’t be any other option.  I’m going to let you in on a secret, are you ready?  MOST PEOPLE are NOT Excutives, business owners, Doctors, Lawyers, etc., okay?  Most people WORK for a living.  This just creates a society of Landlords and Serfs, a step up from slave owners and slaves.  You talk about freedom.  The freedom that you talk about is the same kind of “freedom” the south argued that they had to own slaves.  What if some of the slaves could eventually become slave masters themselves?  Would this justify slavery?  Likewise, if you don’t regulate pollution, then corporations will pollute, period.  There has to be standards and laws.  Technically, no one is free.  We’re not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater, rape, murder, rob, torture, etc.  You’re philosophy would be the same thing as not having police and saying “Well, people should just regulate their own behavior.  Government should stay out of it.” You act as if I advocate a police state because I want justice.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  However, I believe in Liberty AND Justice and see the two as being intertwined and inseperable and feel that neither one should infringe too much on the other.  There has to be a balance.  Not “Well, you’re free, but you can die on the streets.” or “You have food and a house, but don’t criticize our ruler or you’re going to a gulag.”.

Paul, what you’re basically saying is that people who work aren’t earning a living.  Think about it.  What are they doing then?  You find $5.15 an hour fair or just?  It’s disgusting and criminal.  EVERYONE CAN’T DO THE SAME THING, AND EVERYONE CAN’T DO THE HIGHER PAYING POSITIONS.  Period.  I can’t emphasize it enough.  If honest work doesn’t bring honest wages, then what’s the point?  Seriously.  I’d like to see some of the people on this site who look down on manual laborers get off of their fat asses and do it for a week.

So again Paul
How does it affect you what a worker at Wal-Mart makes?
Do they even need your sympathy? Or ask for your sympathy?

JM, apparently this argument only works in the reverse “What is it to YOU what Lee Scott or Donald Trump makes?  You’re greedy.”.  However, when the shoe’s on the other foot, suddenly it matters.  Just like it’s okay to criticize low wage workers and the poor in general, maybe even attack their moral fiber to make it seem just (this also helps you to sleep at night).  But, if you do the opposite, you are utilizing class warfare and being unfair.  A massive Welfare State for the rich and big corporations is fine, as well as massive tax cuts for those that already have more than enough.  However, when you try to make things a little fair, or take the burden off of the have nots, then it’s “Socialism” and “big government”.  Also, when corporations have lobbying groups to influence public policy, this is fine, but if workers try to form a union to voice their concerns, then that’s just outrageous.  I guess the name of that game is “do as I say, not as I hypocritically do.” The reason why some people care, JM, at least in my opinion, is because of greed and selfishness, and/or, the feeling that everything is absolutely fair and equal and that they are just where they are at because of hard work and dedication is psychologically satisfying and helps explain away those inconvenient discrepencies in society.

generic: “Come on, coherent, that’s a load of bull.  This is something that affects all of society, it is not a private transaction made between two people.”

No, it is just their business. Others should butt out: let them ruin their own lives, not the lives of others.

generic: “People that are desperate will work for low amounts - this doesn’t make it right”

And if they improve their skills, they will make more. Whether or not it is “right” is determined by those making the deal.

generic: “If there is no minimum wage, then businesses could just all decide to pay $2.00 an hour”

And yet, this has never happened. Most jobs pay well above the minimum wage: even at Wal-Mart.

generic: “MOST PEOPLE are NOT Excutives, business owners, Doctors, Lawyers, etc., okay?  Most people WORK for a living”

I will let you in on another secret: most executives, doctors, lawyers, etc also work for a living.

generic: “ The freedom that you talk about is the same kind of “freedom” the south argued that they had to own slaves. “

Far from it. The freedom I talk about is the freedom people to run their own lives, even if someone else makes an entirely incorrect, entirely ignorant and entirely subjective judgement that people’s free choices are “wrong”.

No need to mention slavery: nothing being discussed is close to slavery. Except perhaps when the government passes the unjust laws you want: it makes things seem like the government owns us and our private lives.

generic: “ You act as if I advocate a police state because I want justice.”

No, you advocate injustice… injustice that needs a police state to enforce it. Joe Stalin can can decide what everything is worth without taking into regard what the people think and thinking of economic reality. Every time you pass your unjust and unneeded laws, you need someone to enforce it.

I wonder if “Generic Wal-Mart Wageslave in Michigan” could design a semiconductor chip with his shovel, or build a new pharmaceutical drug with his pick-axe.

Manual labor wages are low because practically anyone can enter that labor market.  Without some specialization, you can’t outcompete your other workers to be worth me.  What this Marxist hanger-on can’t grasp is that physical effort is less valued than mental effort because it is available in relative abundance.  It’s man’s mind that bring prosperity, not his muscle. 

Relating this back to Wal-Mart, there are a thousand good reasons why a person would take a job there.  Everybody in this anti-Wal-Mart movement is so concerned about the voice of the workers.  Well, when Wal-Mart stops paying high enough wages to retain their workers voluntarily, they will walk out.  The freedom to leave *is* their voice.  And until they are forced to work their by law, they are always free to leave.

But they don’t.

There is a typo in my previous post: the third line in the second paragraph should say, “to be worth more.” The “o” and “r” got deleted.

Generic you’re comparing apples to oranges when debating the value of work. You’re trying to equate physical labour with a learned skill or other knowledge. Knowlege is infinitely more valuable than labour. Why you may ask? Because most people who are able bodied will be suitible for manual labor. Labor does not require extensive knowledge, talent, or skill, therefore labourers are basically a dime a dozen. However, skilled tradesman and those with creative talents or of higher education are in greater demand. And the greater demand determines the value of their services. The more knowledgeable, skilled or creative a worker is the greater they will be in demand and as a result they command higher wages. You are correcting in stating that not everyone can become a doctor, but unfortunately almost anyone can become a labourer (dig ditches etc) Jobs in which workers can easily be replaced with other unskilled workers are not as valuable and cannot command high salaries.

People who think that workers in management positions do not really “work” are obviously not in management positions. I guarantee that being a store manager invloves a great deal more than you might think.

SB, I never said that jobs like this shouldn’t pay more than working at Wal-Mart or digging a ditch.  Never.  This was not my point.  So what if practically anyone can do them?  Why does this not make them worth anything (especially if they benefit society greatly)?  Who is this prosperity being brought to, by the way?  You and everyone else are not answering the question.  You know why?  You can’t.  All you are doing is advocating a grossly unequal caste system and trying to use arguments from a system that isn’t actually practiced to justify it.

Wondersnevercease, yes, and that is why skilled laborers EARN MORE.  THAT is their reward.  This does not mean that the pay should be absurdly unequal, however, and that people doing manual labor aren’t worth anything.  It also doesn’t explain the question that I’m asking.  A lot of these higher paying cake jobs are not actually “skilled” at all, they just make a lot of money for people that already have it, so they are rewarded for doing so.  Your arguments are all false and fail to adequately explain how the “worth” of an individuals labor is determined.  What’s worth more, driving a truck around town or stocking shelves?  Being a cook or painting houses?  No one seems to know (and before anyone says “market value”, how is this achieved, you’re chasing your tails)?

The main question I’m asking is, why isn’t all work worth at least a decent, basic wage?  And don’t give me this “Well, to me being able to afford caviar is a living wage” stuff.  That’s just dodging the question.

Generic Wal-Mart Wageslave said: “What about my right to a decent paying wage, and food, clothing and shelter?  Oh, these aren’t rights?  Why not?”

They absolutely are NOT rights.  A right is a freedom that enables YOU to act and to keep the result of your actions.  These things that you list as rights--wage, food, clothing, shelter--require someone else to provide something FOR you.  If you have a right to other people’s efforts, then what has become of their rights?

Nobody has the right to physically take your food or to pull the shirt off your back.  What’s yours is yours.  That, however, does not translate into you having the “right” to make other people *provide you* with food or clothing.

As for how labor is valued, yes--it *is* through the market.  It is achieved through the prices you pay!  What do you think prices are, for god’s sake!?!

SB, (hold on, I’m almost finished laughing, okay), you said “If you have a right to other people’s efforts, then what has become of their rights?” and “That, however, does not translate into you having the ‘right’ to make other people *provide you* with food or clothing.” Ha Ha Ha.  Who’s the Marxist now?!  You just argued in favor of Marxism while trying to argue it’s opposite!  Think about it!  Tell that to every capitalist/owner that there is!  Anyway, I wasn’t arguing that people should provide for you or do anything for you.  What I’m arguing is that they shouldn’t be DENIED you, rather through direct action or through some action that prevents you from obtaining them satisfactorily.

I don’t know what you could possibly find contradictory about those statements.  Your defintion of a “right” must truly be perverted for you to be confused about my argument.  It’s clear as crystal, unless I suppose you have accepted the Marxist vernacular.

You say, “Anyway, I wasn’t arguing that people should provide for you or do anything for you.”

You certainly are, when you equivocate between that and “not being denied” something.  You are saying that if you can’t afford to buy X, then your rights have been violated because you have been denied X.

So absurd it isn’t worth comment.

FYI, my post above is of course in response to “Generic,” not “Wondersnevercease.”

What Generic is lacking is a concept of property rights.  If you ignore property rights, you can almost end up as logically twisted a position as his.

Alex: I think Gennie has a concept of property rights, except in his, this right is reserved for the ruling class ("the government”, “the state") and to be denied to the people.

Wow, just reading some posts, and getting worked up. From where I sit, it reads like a bunch of elitists snobs who think that their priority in life is to sit in high judgement of blue-collar workers and discuss why they are worthier than others to get better pay. You say that working for minimum wage is a choice, and people should get an education, but say you graduated from high school and need to support a family, so you go to work at Wal-mart, how do you walk away? Will you pay for me to eat and live and by the way fund my college so I can escape minimum wage? Please...!!I’ve worked manual labor and in offices, and am currently back in school, and trust me, I worked my ass off making 5.15 and hour, compared to what I do now making 30 an hour. Some of the most educated people I have met are some of the dumbest people I know.

Man...I wish I had joined in earlier. It looks like coherent, wonders, and SB have everything under control, though.

Steinbeck in Greentown, In-

“You say that working for minimum wage is a choice, and people should get an education, but say you graduated from high school and need to support a family, so you go to work at Wal-mart, how do you walk away?”

One question: Why on earth would you be trying to raise a family out of high school? That sounds like a terrible choice to make. Anyone who walks that path has not only chosen his lot in life, but also deserves to live in poverty.

Generic-

Check the site to which I’m linking. I think you (and other WMWers) will find it helpful.

Hooray for the thinkers!
My favorite part about this website is how effectivly intellectuals such as wonders, coherent, and someone are able to put others like generic in their places.
In every blog I have read the intellectuals have caused people such as generic to resort to using classic fallacies.  Instead of backing thier feelings with intelligent thoughts they attempt to discredit their opponents.
One constant with the leftists is that they cannot argue facts. Thier lives are ruled by emmotion and are easily shattered by logic.

Coherent, part 2:

We are not talking about trading goods or services only between two people.  You know that this is false.

Wrong, corporations affect the public as well, it is not some free enterprise exchange between two people like you pretend.  People HAVE to work (with exceptions), it is not a personal choice like if my friend decides to buy an old television from me.

How are they different?  What if I was a racist and didn’t want to hire Asian people or women?  Isn’t that my personal freedom?  Isn’t it just between us?  No one is forcing them to work for me, right?  The point is, it’s a uniform standard of justice.  Don’t pretend like this is about protecting the low-skill workers, either, by paying them crap wages.  I can smell the B.S. coming through my computer.

You could cut the necessity for Welfare and other social safety net services (don’t you favor less government?) by having a LIVING, REALISTIC, minimum wage?  Doesn’t EVERYONE pay with excessive government welfare programs?  Only people that truly needed them would utilize them then, NOT people who work for a living.  Why are people who are working needing assistance from the state?  What is wrong with that picture?  Remember, someone HAS to do these jobs, and some people can ONLY do these jobs.

Once again, the idea that “some work is worth more” is just an arbitrary dictate and opinion.  A biochemist’s work is worth more than someone doing “unskilled” labor (although some would disagree, and I KIND of agree to an extent, but not fully, so don’t say that I accept that), but some jobs are comparable in their amount of work/effort/skill, yet, there are discrepencies that can’t be explained or justified by anyone.

Once again, fair and honest, like you claim to support, and a wage that doesn’t allow anyone to actually live realistically is not so.  Isn’t working HOW you live in our society?  If I have to get a job to survive in our society, and it doesn’t allow me to do so, it is worthless and a lie.  What if I WANT to work at a fast food restaurent, but am forced to do something that I don’t want to to live satisfactorily?  How is THAT free?  How do you justify not having a minimum wage, because you claim that it is forcing people to unjustly pay, yet, support government welfare a second later, which forces EVERYONE to pay?  Both are uniform standards of justice that allow someone to live.  You can pay now, or you can pay later, but either way you pay, and you, being in favor of less government, seem to be supporting more.  Amazing.

I have already explained my position on Chavez and government in general and you keep falsely attributing ideas to me that I don’t support (nothing new on this site) by twisting my logic around and misrepresenting it to suit your Capitali$t propaganda.

Well, low wage workers aren’t valued as much because they are “choosing” to work those positions, and this justifies their low wages, so, what if someone makes that same decision about skin color and decides since most people of ‘x’ group are poor, they don’t deserve a decent wage?  Minimum wage laws help to protect low skilled workers.  Your claim that they don’t isn’t really about the workers, it’s about the people paying them and you know it.

It is not begging for a handout, it is working.  Work and handouts are not the same.  I feel that those are rights that cannot be denied, and if someone can only do certain jobs for whatever reason, and the wages don’t allow them to meet those needs, then guess what, they are being denied.  If greed is not a right, also, then somebody tell that to people refusing to pay fair wages.

Why is it fair for some jobs?  Says who?  Is forcing everyone to pay via Welfare programs fair, then?

Basic necessities are not “lifestyle choices”.

Finally, I have NOTHING in common with a Stalinist - at all.  I am diametrically opposed to that.  I get accused of being a Communist, and, if by Communist, you mean the Soviet Union, Vietnam, Cuba, etc, then the main supporters of that would have to be the supporters of Wal-Mart because they are huge supporters of the “People’s Republic” of China.  You condemn Chavez in one breath, and then support companies trading with countries that are ACTUAL, proclaimed Communist dictatorships, as well as policies that favor these countries, in the next.  If anything, the supporters of Wal-Mart are pro-"Communist", and the detractors are against it.  Or, maybe it’s because “the People’s Republic” of China isn’t actually Communist at all, what it IS, however, in reality, is Fascist state-run Capitali$m, which seems to be right up a lot of people’s allies.

Jon, if by intellectuals you mean people who spit out B.S. that would only be true if we actually had the system that we are told that we have, then, yeah, I guess there would be plenty of “intellectuals” on here.  If anyone is using fallacies it would be the people that you named.  I love such logical arguments as “well, unions are bad too!”, and “well, if you don’t like it, be a millionaire”, and “You’re a Marxist!”, and my favorite “your insistence in human rights makes you a supporter of crazed dictators who called their systems the opposite of what they were”.  Wow, how can I compete with such brilliant arguments?  I guess the definition of fallacy would also be “anything that challenges my indoctrinated belief system”.

The wages has now gone up. I still say Walmart is not good place to be working because it’s retail store. You want to try find a good job that can pay you more than $20,000 a year. Do the best you can to look for a better job than walmart. All walmart doing is using people and taking immagation from other conutry to work there. They don’t care about the people as long Walston family making money that’s all it about. Yes, I understand that there over 10,000 people that working for them but are there a better promotion for them????? Why do they have to be stuck with low paying job and not getting the hours they needs to live. I really don’t like how walmart business plan work they don’t seem really care about others. People like us have to live too. We want a better life also not just be working so hard and working overtime. That’s not good. Mom and Dad should be home with their family. Walston need to find a better business paln. I wish everyone the best with thier life. God bless.~Jarvis

Democracy:  1.a government by the people; esp: rule of the majority b. a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usu. involving periodically held free elections

Dictator: a person granted absolute emergency power
2 one enjoying complete autocratic control 3 one ruling absolutely andd often brutally and oppressively

generic, re Chavez - “No, he is not a Bolshevist.  “

He has stated that he wants to turn Venezeula into a Bolshevist state, with him as the leader.

generic - “Bolshevism is NOT Socialism”

Exactly the same as “Catholicism is NOT Christianity.”

generic - “A coup attempt was democratic?”

The coup attempt would have overthrown the dictatorship and restored democracy.

generic - “One that was sponsored by a foreign imperialist power”

It was helped by a foreign anti-imperialist power, yes. The only foreign imperial power involved was Castro’s Cuba, as he has been helping Chavez tighten his power.

generic - “War is peace.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.”

....and Chavez is a democratic leader. It all fits.

generic - “Where the hell does genocidal fascism come into play (hmmm, I can think of some countries that practice that or have practiced that in the past and guess what, they’re not “Socialist”.) “

Most countries/rulers that have practiced this have been Socialist, including all of the worst examples.

generic - “You can criticize Zionism or the state of Israel and not be antisemitic”

Typically this is not the case. Chances are, the instant someone complains about “Zionism”, they are just bashing Jews.

generic - “What “open/free” media?  Are you that naive?  Do you think that mainstream U.S. media is open and free?”

The US media is more open and free than any other in the world. It is naive and ignorant to assume otherwise.

generic - “It is controlled by corporate interests, the Pentagon, and the CIA, and the Pentagon and CIA have admitted it.”

How can they admit something that is not true? You are bringing up a long-discredited conspiracy theory.  There are thousands of diverse voices.

generic - “The only open and free media is non-corporate and independent”

All media not government-controlled is independent.  Most all media is corporate, because the legal system encourages organizing into corporations in order to avoid frivolous lawsuits. This is true of most of the far-left media as well.

generic - “....the ruling plutocracy.”

Again referring to things that do not exist.

Jarvis in Albany

Its’ the WALTON family, not Walston. Good grammatical skills will improve your postion in our society. Ray Walston was an actor in one of those 1960’s shows, either Lost in Space or My Favorite Martian.

Mom and Dad should be home with their kids. However, both parents work so Biff and Muffy can have their x-box games, designer clothes and I-pods. We have become a nation of self-centered pigs.

When did he say this?  Or is that just your interpretation.  If he does, I no longer support him.

Not at all true, and even if this is your argument, then it would imply that YOU are arguing that Catholicism is the same as Methodism.  Think about it.  In fact, this isn’t even right, calling Bolshevism Socialism is like calling Satanism Christianity.

It’s not a dictatorship.  He was put into power freely and legally and the people have individual rights.  Just ask the media calling him a piece of crap everyday.  Define dictator and I will show that President Bush fits every criteria and even more so.

The imperialist country was the United States.  You don’t know much about our history or foreign policy, do you?  Also, Cuba is not imperialist.  It is a dictatorship, but it is not imperialist.  Before us it was the British, French, Spanish, etc.  Before them it was Rome, and so on and so on.

So when the U.S. was practicing genocide against the native population and stealing land (imperialism), was it socialist?  How about when it was doing the same thing in Mexico?  The Phillipines?  Cuba?  Haiti?  Guatamala?  And so on and so on.  Was the British empire socialist?  We could go on and on.

Sometimes it’s used as a Nazi, “hint, hint, cough, cough, you know what we really mean” smoke screen and sometimes not.  I am not antisemitic and criticize the actions of Israel and Zionism, as well as the actions of groups like Hamas (ironically criticizing Arabs, who are semites, or Palestinians or Muslims is not antisemitic) as do many Jews today (and no, this does not make them self hating), as did most Jews at the beginning of it, mostly ultraorthodox Rabbi’s.  Also, many Zionists are not Jews (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc.).

It is not the most open and free.  There are studies on this.  Everything is filtered, spun, biased, and distorted, and not in the “the media is liberal” (whatever that means) way that you think.  You should read the list of Project Censored’s top news stories that should have been front page news but weren’t each year.

It most certainly is true, and they have admitted it.  As early as the 60’s a LARGE percentage of journalists were directly on the CIA’s payroll.  NBC, owned by GE (military-industrial complex) might as well be called “Pentagon Propaganda”, as should CNN.  Most of our mainstream media is controlled by a small group of corporations with similar interests, that are allied with the military-industrial complex.  This is no theory.  Especially when people admit it.  Most conspiracies are actually right out in the open if you bother to look.  There is lots of debate, but the range of that debate is limited and controlled.  Look, you can believe whatever you want, but I’m just telling you how it works.

If you think that there is no ruling plutocracy then I don’t even know what to say.  Open your eyes.

generic - “The imperialist country was the United States.  You don’t know much about our history or foreign policy, do you?”

I know a lot about both. US imperialism pretty much stopped around the time of WW2. The actual instances of it (such as going into Haiti at the end of Bush 1) are very few and weak.

generic - “So when the U.S. was practicing genocide against the native population and stealing land (imperialism), was it socialist? “

Good question. Most of this was done before socialism was invented. However, instances such as the “Trail of Tears” are pretty common under socialist regimes since.

generic - “(ironically criticizing Arabs, who are semites, or Palestinians or Muslims is not antisemitic)”

Once again you show you are not qualified to say anything about antisemitism. The term “antisemitism” refers specifically and only to Jews. Look it up.

generic - “It is not the most open and free.  There are studies on this.  Everything is filtered, spun, biased, and distorted, and not in the “the media is liberal” “

There are also studies that say it is all controlled by Jews. Addressing the claims: Every media outlet filters, has bias, and is distorted. However, in our wide open free media system, other media outlets (with their own different filters and biases) are free to point this out and “counter-spin”. “Liberal media”? While the dominant TV news media is/are mostly left wing, it is hard to make any generalization for all media.

Yes, the media is/are the most open and free. Michael Moore is free to make his case, unfettered by the govenrment, as is Sean Hannity. There is a lack of filtering where it is most important to have a lack of filtering: the US has the least censorship. The only limit is how much the people like their ideas. No matter how much Al Franken wants it, we don’t yet have laws here to mandate popularity.

generic - “You should read the list of Project Censored’s top news stories that should have been front page news but weren’t each year.”

I read their list every year or so. It is hillarious: the large number of their “censored” stories happen to be ones I saw covered on CNN or other very large media outlets.

Also, “Project Censored” has no idea what censorship means. Only the government can censor. CNN deciding what story to emphasize or not is a merely matter of CNN exercising their freedom of the press.

Yes, the stories are aired, quite amply. “Project Censored” just can’t deal with the fact that most people just don’t care about or agree with the Project’s opinions. And, if this is not ironic, “Project Censored” itself is not censored at all. The presence of “Project Censored” provides further proof of the free-and-open media.

I checked the current list on “Project Censored”:

- The first story alleges a media cover-up of the movement to impeach President Bush. Now for a reality check: CNN’s own site has more than 800 news items about or discussing the impeachment.

- The second story discusses whether or not the US will attack Iran. If you can count THIS big headline item as an example of a story suppressed by mainstream media, then so was the OJ trial!

- The third story refers to a nonexistent secret cabal. Sort of shows their bias.

- “Most of our mainstream media is controlled by a small group of corporations with similar interests, that are allied with the military-industrial complex.  This is no theory”

It is not even worthy of a theory. There is no evidence to it. I can quickly name only two of the 8 or so very big news organizations that are part of defense conglomerates.

generic - “ There is lots of debate, but the range of that debate is limited and controlled. “

I can go to my local mainstream bookstore and readily get books, magazines, etc by Chomsky, Billy Kristol, Lyndon La Rouche, Howard Dean, etc. It’s about as controlled as a rabid dog who broke off his leash!

generic - “Look, you can believe whatever you want, but I’m just telling you how it works.”

Thanks for the reassurance, Chicken Little.

finally -

generic: “my favorite “your insistence in human rights makes you a supporter of crazed dictators who called their systems the opposite of what they were”.

Actually, you have shown opposition to human rights (in favor of having government rights instead). The support of crazed dictators is quite apparent: there is one you indeed support. But he’s OK, because “Christ-killers” really does not mean Jews, and he never intends to enforce the laws he rammed through that criminalize dissent. Oh no, he’s a good guy. How do we know this? He says he is doing it to help the poor.

Hugo Chavez could kick puppies to death in your own front yard, but as long as he looks up and says to you “It is to bring about economic justice!!!” you’d walk back in and say. “Carry on. You’ve got a good heart.”.

gupta said: “Mom and Dad should be home with their kids. However, both parents work so Biff and Muffy can have their x-box games, designer clothes and I-pods. We have become a nation of self-centered pigs. “

A lot of the time both parents have to work to put food on the table. Why? Not the gameboy. It’s the taxes. If you want to find out who is responsible, look to the Democratic Party, which opposed the passage of middle-class tax cuts (and made them less). They oppose future tax cuts for working families, and want to roll back the ones in place. It is all about greed.

Ok - here’s my take on this whole “anti-walmart” thing that is annoying me & affecting me because its: a) protested in my neighborhood and loud and intrusive, b)in my newspapers, and on my tv set.

Bottom line: This is, at the very root - simply a stand by the unions to try to survive. If they can get some of the 1.7 million employees of walmart to buy into them, they’ll be able to guarantee their life a little longer. In reality - unions really have little purpose in todays society - and their memberships are suffering massively. The only times “wal-mart” employees are usually used is when they’re hand picked as “poster children” for the cause of the unions - or when people are brainwashed into their belief of entitlement present by the unions - and join the “cause” on their own. Sickening.

Bottom line: Free society. Be thankful if an employer provides you any benefits; ANY benefits. Be thankful if an employer CHOOSES to pay you for your work. QUIT your job and find ANOTHER ONE if you feel you’re not paid enough - or think you can get better benefits elsewhere. How DARE some of you people demand what an employer give you. How DARE you. Why do you feel this entitlement so?
I am neither affiliated with walmart, nor an “executive”. As a matter of fact, I’m a high school dropout with 3 children @ 34 years old in the “poor city” of Cleveland. And ya know what? I am doing FINE. I am working for a living - a living which support me AND my children. I am doing whatever it TAKES to advance myself and my employment - and I have to work hard every day to achieve more, every day.

I AM A WORKING CLASS AMERICAN and REFUSE to be supported by ANYONE else. I do and will continue to EARN my pay and everything I want in my life.

Are those of making minimum wages demanding walrmart give you more conceding that you’re “too stupid” to do what I do? That you’re “too stupid” to support yourself? No? Then do it! I’m no genious and neither are the millions of others who support their families and work hard every day - some with 2 & 3 jobs - including walmart jobs - to surive and get what they need and want.

Get a clue you MORONS!!!

Disgusted in Cleveland

Excellent post! Keep up the good work. I wish more people in this country had your moral and work ethic!

Disgusted in Cleveland

You said “Be thankful if an employer CHOOSES to pay you for your work”.  And “I’m a high school dropout”.

With that type of reasoning, I’d be surprised if you even made it to school.

First of all, people who have paid alot of money to go to college are paid high wages to use their brains for companies.  To earn that company more money and keep them competitive in today’s market.  The unfortunate part of that is there are some idiots out there with degrees.  Now, the other person without the mental apptitude that cannot make good “high-end” decisions, or the person who just was not able to go to college or had no desire to, has to work in the lower end of the field.  The hard working ditch digger doesn’t even compare with the minimum wage worker at wal-mart.  The labor isn’t even in the same catagory.  However, most ditch diggers will make more than minimum wage.  Again, a lot of it goes back to education.  If you went to a hospital emergency room for just a simple thing like stitches in your finger, would you settle for having the housekeeping aide stitch you up?  Give you your tetanus shot?  Maybe even x-ray you and draw blood?  She/he knows how to sew, what’s the difference?  Uh, education?  It’s not taking away from the environmental service positions.  They are as much of an integral part of the hospital as the medical staff.  However, they haven’t had the same training, so their salary shows that.  Granted, some people are way, way over paid.  Such as, execs for the oil companies, United Way and Red Cross executives, Politicians (and what have they done for us lately?) and athletes (that we “smart” low wage earners continue to support [tongue-n-cheek]).  Plus, another part of the wage and job problem is: “ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.” However, that’s another issue and I could write for hours on that one.
Back to the minimum wage issue:  If those of you who are older remember when minimum wage went up years ago, the cost of living also increased.  Therefore, groceries, utilities, housing, transportation, everything went up in price.  It’s a “catch-22”.  The only person it really hurts is the person making more than minimum wage, unless they are in a high tax bracket.  Because their salaries won’t go up when minimum wage and inflation increases.  So, they are making less.
It’s easy for people, like Oprah, to take a stand because they aren’t affected by it.  It just makes them look good.
Well, that’s all I’m gonna say for now… could write for hours on this one as well.  By the way… I’ve worked from minimum wage to high paying jobs (because I went to college to get a degree for that high pay) and my spouse works a labor job for more than minimum, but not high pay.  We both strongly believe that forcing higher wages is the wrong way to go.  If you want to live that way… go to France.  If you believe Wal-mart is doing so wrong, quit shopping there… put your money where your mouth is.  Or should I say, “don’t put your money where your mouth is.”

Disgusted in Cleveland

Way to go!!!
I agree with you!  Whatever happened to the days of people working hard for what they want? People need to realize that the freedoms that we have in this country don’t guarantee us that we will own cars, houses, and such; but, that we have the right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.  Happiness doesn’t necessarily mean large sums of money.  My husband and I struggled to get by with starting a family early.  It was a choice we made at a young age.  However, I went to school to better myself.  Once that was established, my husband stopped being a house husband and looked for work.  He looked until he found a job that paid higher than minimum wage.  There are jobs out there.  Most hospitals are in need of nurses aids (they will train), housekeepers, dietary aides.  All of which pay higher than minimum wage.  A lot of it is a decision thing.  By the way… how much do people want walmart to pay the low end people?  The people we know at our local walmart get more than minimum wage.  There are other jobs out there paying more than minimum wage: McDonalds - $6.50/hr; Swifty Oil - $8.00/hr; White Castle - $8.00/hr; Home Depot $8.00/hr and cashiers can make $10 per hour.  So there are just a few.  So, a lot of it is a decision thing.  Can someone give me the names of companies that do pay just minimum wage.  I’ve raised 3 kids (ages 18, 20, 24) and neither one of them ever worked for minimum wage.  Even when they were 16.
So, where would it help to raise the minimum wage?  So we increase minimum wage, but now we pay:  $4/gal for milk, $3/loaf for bread (walmart brand - o.88 cents), that $16,000 car will be $22,000.  Now the $50 xbox game is $65.  Where does it end???  People will demand another increase to minimum wage because it’s not enough again.  We all want more… that’s human nature.  However, my husband and I have put in extra hours or worked extra jobs for those “extra” items we want and that’s how we raised our kids.  If you think you have it so bad here, go live in a 3rd world country or a communist country for a while.  See how bad it is then.  Work for nothing or little of nothing.