Change to Win Report: How Wal-Mart ships American Jobs to China

The unions are more responsible for shipping jobs to China than Walmart.

In a 2006 speech by Tony Neuberger, a former union leader and a candidate for a seat in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania legislature said the following: “Up until the middle of the 20th Century, the unions were the savior of the common working man. However, beginning in the latter one quarter of the 20th Century, a gradual change began taking place. Because of better enforcement of labor laws unions are needed less and because of union corruption, greed and excesses the unions are less of a savior for the common working man and more of a burden for society in general”

Hi friend of Tony.
“In a 2006 speech by Tony Neuberger, ........ a candidate for a seat in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania legislature.....”

So Tony got elected by the people?

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Alex from Ontario,

The signifiance of what “Friend of Wally” is saying was that Mr. Neuberger was a former union leader.

Don’t deviate from the facts and get with the program!

A Friend of a Friend of Wally

So it looks like the 2006 speech by Tony Neuberger, a former union leader and a candidate for a seat in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania legislature did not get him elected. Do you think he is working at a Walmart store now?
Probably not!

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Would you really expect a union leader to be smart enough to be elected to the legislature of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

Would you really expect a union leader to be smart enough to be elected to the legislature of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

John in OKC

I think he got Friend of Wally’s vote!

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Alex,

What are you complaining about Wal-Mart for:

“--Wal-Mart buys 80% of all the goods sold in its Canadian stores in Canada.”

Doesn’t seem that Wal-Mart is outsourcing many Canadian jobs!!

BTW: I saw Micheal Moore on the ‘Tonight Show’, his next film should be called “Fatso”, about people who have healthcare problems because they are over weight, he would be a prime candidate, he’s well over 300#, I’ll bet!!

I must admit Friend of Wally’s quote piqued my curiosity but this Tony Neuberger is one obscure fellow. Normal on-line research reveals nothing??

Could you provide a source, FoW? I’d kinda like to read the whole speech.

China is the source for more than 70 percent of Wal-Mart’s U.S. merchandise.2

--In the U.K., Wal-Mart/Asda recently announced a major “campaign to boost the beleaguered British clothing industry,” by “stocking an entire range of clothing made exclusively in the U.K.” 13

Apparently Wal-Mart is interested in preserving the economies of every country* they operate in except the good ol’ U.S. of A.!  Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

*Of course, “suppliers based in” a country may not be all it appears.

There is absolutely no evidence that these numbers posted by WMW are even remotely accurate. I could take issue with the whole post but I will address one number in particular.

“Wal-Mart costs the US 61,000 jobs each year and each new Wal-Mart store costs the US 336 jobs lost to China.”

Both totally false but, hey, why should WMW let the truth get in the way of their slime campaign?

Just where does this 61,000 number come from? Wal-Mart’s biggest suppliers, P&G;, Johnson & Johnson, Unilever, Pepsi Co., Coca Cola and GE are already global companies, and have been so for decades. To arrive at this number, try and use some logic:

Wal-Mart has X number of suppliers. Each year, these suppliers ship 61,000 jobs overseas. Does anyone really believe this to be the case? It is so ridiculous, it does not merit serious discussion.

At any rate, WMW claims that suppliers are so tied in to Wal-Mart that they can’t afford to piss off Wal-Mart. Well, then, by trying to hurt Wal-Mart, aren’t they hurting US companies and putting Americans out of work?

As for this 336 jobs lost to China for each Wal-Mart store-where do you come up with this crap? Each distribution center supplies X number of stores. Opening a new store is a blip at the DC. The manufacturer can increase its production to accomidate 1 store with almost no increase in non-variable costs. How, then, does this one new Wal-Mart store cost the US 336 jobs?

When a company goes out of business OR outsources work overseas, WMW will blame Wal-Mart for the lost jobs. It does not matter if the company had 12 divisions and only one part of 1 division actually ever had anything to do with Wal-Mart. I’m sure that, soon, Wal-Mart will be blamed for the jobs that Dell outsourced years ago.

What is disgusting about this country is the ability of people to slander and post things they know for a fact to be outright lies. Don’t show me a study by some union hack. Saying that Wal-Mart ships jobs overseas is wishful thinking at best and does not address facts. If a Wal-Mart supplier ships jobs overseas, blame the supplier. Here is a similar case in the world of individuals. You have a kid in ice skating. In order for your kid to be able to travel and compete in championship events, you need $5,000, which is the cost of the trip. You don’t have it and so you rob a bank to get it. You get caught. Then you blame the ice skating people for making it necessary for you to rob the $5,000 from the bank. They had nothing to do with your decision but you’ll blame them, anyway. This is the same thing as blaming Wal-Mart for the decisions of other companies. It is ridiculous, childish, unrealistic and completely lacking in logic or reason.

From 1990-2005, Wal-Mart’s profit margin was 3%-4%, annual average. From 1990-2005, Wal-Mart’s vendors, on average, tripled their margins.

Food for thought?

There is absolutely no evidence that these numbers posted by WMW are even remotely accurate.

To substantiate that claim, Nick, you’re going to have to dig a little deeper. To begin with these are not WMW numbers. They come from a report done by Change to Win complete with “citations”.

Perhaps if you begin by discrediting the individual citations (sources) we’ll be in a better position to judge the accuracy of the overall report.

Some of the endnote numbering is off, specifically endnotes 2 and 3.

The 70% number excludes food products (endnote 4). Why the source for this is “Gladstone Capital Quarterly Shareholders Call” is a little ... confusing? It also doesn’t distinguish between direct and indirect sourcing.

If you read a little deeper into some of the supporting material, it’s not that Wal-Mart is the direct cause of this job loss. And it’s not job loss, it’s job opportunity loss, meaning these jobs never existed to be lost in the first place.  The study takes the total US trade with China and converts this number to an equivalent number of US jobs to support the same amount of production. Since Wal-Mart is responsible for x% of trade with China, they are responsible for x% of this job opportunity loss. And you take this number divided by the number of stores Wal-Mart opened over the same time period, and you get the jobs “lost” to China per store. They don’t actually show any correlation.

Meh, you’ll read what you want to read into the numbers, not that it matters.

PRECISELY, NICK!

“At any rate, WMW claims that suppliers are so tied in to Wal-Mart that they can’t afford to piss off Wal-Mart. Well, then, by trying to hurt Wal-Mart, aren’t they hurting US companies and putting Americans out of work?” I’m sure there is a huge list of suppliers who regret having crawled into bed with Wal-Mart in the first place.

Wal-Mart has already got it’s slimy tentacles wrapped around too many segments of the U.S. economy. Any major fall by Wal-Mart would send a severe shock wave across the land.  Why do you think so many are opposed to Wal-Mart getting into any kind of banking...this is playing with fire and inviting a disaster that will make the S&L;bailout look like the closing of Winkie’s 5 & 10 Stores.  Now--Wally World wants to make it “easier” for the working poor, by allowing them to deposit their paychecks directly into Wal-Mart.

tj-- What are you smoking?  “these jobs never existed to be lost in the first place.” Go to North Carolina or South Carolina and tell that to all of the thousands of people who used to work in America’s textile industry.

MORE CRAP, FROM THE MIND OF RDS

“his next film should be called “Fatso”, about people who have healthcare problems because they are over weight, he would be a prime candidate...”

After that, Michael Moore could make a film called “Mental.” You’d be a prime subject, RDS, or “Bob-in!”

I was trying to explain where “Each new store Wal-Mart added in these years represented 336 U.S. jobs lost to China” came from.  My only point was that the article is combining numbers from jobs that were literally displaced, meaning production in the US that was moved overseas, and production that is entirely overseas where production never occurred in the US. At some point going directly to an overseas supplier doesn’t make anyone in the US lose their job, but it creates a lost opportunity for a US worker to do that job. I know, too subtle.

The next argument is to look at overall employment in the US, and how this has changed over the same time period, and that a trade deficit is not necessarily bad.

Then, it’s not the number of jobs, but the quality and nature of those jobs, relative pay and benefits, monopsony power, etc.

Then, we’re all love-of-money, propagandist, war room psychopaths...something, something, Beast… maybe I ~should~ be smoking something…

THANKS FOR THE “KEEPER” QUOTE, SCREWED!

“Any major fall by Wal-Mart would send a severe shock wave across the land.” ~ ScrewedbyWal-Mart in Anytown, America

Just remember if KenV in Texas has his way, it’s going to be on his conscience!

Ken V,

“Apparently Wal-Mart is interested in preserving the economies of every country* they operate in except the good ol’ U.S. of A.!”

If you were a business owner, would it make sense to you, to buy products from another country with high labor costs and wholesale prices, when you can get it cheaper in the country where the store is located?

““Any major fall by Wal-Mart would send a severe shock wave across the land.” ~ ScrewedbyWal-Mart in Anytown, America”

And, this is what YOU are shooting for, ‘a shock wave across the land’, right?  Nice, and you complain about Wal-Mart caring about the U.S. economy!!

Screwedby,

“After that, Michael Moore could make a film called “Mental.” You’d be a prime subject, RDS, or “Bob-in!””

Are you trying to deny that Micheal Moore is huge?  And, do you deny that being overweight is unhealthy?

Rds . Its your business how? You shouldn’t judge anyone.

WHO ASKED YOU, ERIN!

Passing judgement is the very foundation of Wal-Mart Watch—why should the rules only apply to a select few?

Point blank—if Wal-Mart Watch has their opinion, RDS is entitled to his, too!

Be warned, not everyone is on the same page, here…

Wow.........now we have 2 of these cats tearing things up........

Hang tuff, RDS, we all know the truth that obesity is unhealthy!

Jake

HECK NO, RDS!>

No...I’d never say being over-weight is a good thing, and I’d never deny that Michael Moore is a few pounds over the ideal weight.  But as Erin has already pointed out, what business is that of yours and what does that have to do with anything being discussed here?  Are you now declaring open season on anyone who packs on a few more pounds than they should?  Anything to derail the conversation---right Bobbo?

By the way RDS, I’d NEVER deny that you are mental either!

As for you--- “Wal-Mart Watch’s way is not my way in America,” you’re welcome on the quote.  You are either new here, or you are one of the regular lamos like RDS, Nick, or Jake who is using yet another alias.  I’ll share the responsibility with Ken V. for any troubles Wal-Mart might have.  Our consciences allow us to sleep very well at night, thank you!  If Wal-Mart does take the Big Fall sometime, I want it to be sooner rather than later!

Wow......I have been upgraded to a regular!

Life is good!

Jake

...it’s going to be on his conscience!

Conscience? This is business.

Besides, I have to respectfully disagree with the learned Screwed. The fall of Wal-Mart would only cause a momentary blip. Target, KMart, Dollar Stores, Costco, etc. are more than ready to take up the slack.

“--Wal-Mart buys 80% of all the goods sold in its Canadian stores in Canada."”

More like bought by distributors in Canada who sell goods from China.
I think we still sell our own milk and eggs.

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KEN V, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!

Dollar Stores?  Really!  You like to talk about Wal-Mart’s business relationship with China, did it ever occur to you that Dollar Tree is the epitome of “cheap Chinese crap”?

I think you’ve been hanging around with your peons Alex and SanDiegoView a little too much!

I respect your right to disagree Ken, however...

I don’t think you are fully considering the scale of Wal-Mart, Ken.  As our “resident economist” Nick has so often reminded us, Wal-Mart is larger than several major U.S. corporations combined, Target and K-Mart being among them.

No--it would not be a “momentary blip” if Wal-Mart would ever have serious difficulties.  In terms of the supply chain and logistics, Target, K-Mart and the others you mentioned would not be able to fill the gap overnight...even if they wanted to.  And, let’s not forget all of Wal-Mart’s highly paid and well trained “Associates.” I don’t think there would be a rush to rehire all of them.

So, as much as I’d like to see Wal-Mart just dry up and blow away, that’s just wishful thinking.  At this stage of the game, a more prudent course to follow is to keep the heat on Wal-Mart and get them to change their business model.

I’m Flattered You Chose to Immitate Me

Whovever you are:  “No way, Wal-Mart Watch in most towns with half a brain!”

At least the people in those towns are a half brain up on YOU!  You more closely resemble the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

I’ve been using a certain posting style for over a year now...my bold headlines in my posts have annoyed some people, and others don’t seem to care one way or the other.

Now I see you’ve decided to adopt this style...why don’t you get original?  You’re too much of a chicken shit to use your regular posting name.  Knock yourself out lamo!

Screwedby,

“But as Erin has already pointed out, what business is that of yours and what does that have to do with anything being discussed here? “

Oh, I see, WMW can stick it’s nose into Wal-Mart’s business, Micheal Moore can stick his nose in the healthcare business, and you and Robert Greenwald can stick your collective noses into Wal-Mart’s business, yet, I can’t make a comment about Micheal Moore’s new movie and suggest another one, right?  What business is it of your’s, WMW’s to critize Wal-Mart?  Remember, Alex brought it up!!

“In terms of the supply chain and logistics, Target, K-Mart and the others you mentioned would not be able to fill the gap overnight...even if they wanted to.”

Besides, it wouldn’t be long before there was a TargetWatch to replace this one, remember, they are non-union too and they don’t pay any better!!  But, then again, maybe Costco could handle it, right SDV?

Alex,

“"--Wal-Mart buys 80% of all the goods sold in its Canadian stores in Canada."”

More like bought by distributors in Canada who sell goods from China.”

So, are you saying that WMW is posting articles, that aren’t accurate?

More self extinguishing keyboard slobber from Nick-

“What is disgusting about this country is the ability of people to slander and post things they know for a fact to be outright lies. Don’t show me a study by some union hack. Saying that Wal-Mart ships jobs overseas is wishful thinking at best and does not address facts. If a Wal-Mart supplier ships jobs overseas, blame the supplier.”

What is WalMart supplier relationships as documented for pressure to outsource overseas and what is TRADE DEFICIT and GLOBAL LABOR ARBITRAGE, and what is millions of lost American manufacturing jobs due to corporate psychopath greed for at least $300 billion annually Alex?

Take it from chief wolf Sam Walton-

Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton once said, “I pay low wages. I can take advantage of that. We’re going to be successful, but the basis is a very low-wage, low-benefit model of employment.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wal-Mart#_note-
iswalmartgood

“Is Wal-Mart Good for America?” PBS. November 16, 2004. Retrieved on February 24, 2007.

WalMart- We are not just impoverishment paying American ‘jobs’. We are traitors to U.S. manufacturing labor and any thing else we can shift overseas. The Waltons want to thank all the American people for all the different types of subsidies the U.S. taxpayer suckers pick-up for WalMart.

As for the WalMart/Walton/Bentonville wolves-

“The Shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep’s throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as a destroyer of liberty.” Abraham Lincoln

More self extinguishing keyboard slobber...

You do have a way with words, SDV.

...my bold headlines in my posts have annoyed some people...

I thought you were just showing off your HTML tagging skills, Screwed.

:o)

I am saying that Change to Win’s needs to check only their suggestion about imports in Canada. We have less manufacturing than America, since we are a much less populated country. I think they are confusing a Canadian distributor vs Canadian made. Very little in Walmart is Canadian made.

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It is just that Nick has a singular capacity of clogging up the internet bullshit filter. As Neil Postman once wrote about the situation we are in, it is Huxley and not Orwell that was right.

RDS-

Does this mean those two attack dogs are now turning on each other, brother?

Jake

Speaking of “Keyboard Slobber...”

SDV:  I just about died with laughter this morning at your description of Nick’s posts...I think we all feel the same way, but until now, nobody has been able to accurately define it.  You managed to do it in two words...“Keyboard Slobber!”

Ken V: Heck no.  When it comes to HTML skills, you’re no slouch.  My posting “headers” are more for my convenience...it’s a way to go back and reference something later if I need to.  I’ve been accused of all sorts of things...such as “wanting to draw attention to myself etc. etc. <Insert Big Yawn Here>

Hey speaking of “Keyboard Slobber,”there is nobody that slobbers better than RDS.

Say what you want about Michael Moore RDS, here’s what he had to say in a recent interview with MSN Health and Fitness regarding Universal Health Care:

“The best thing would be for people to start operating with the concept of “we” instead of “me.” In the decisions they make in their daily lives, to think about their connection to their fellow citizens—that would be a wonderful thing. And if we start thinking like that, everything else would fall into place.”

This is something we’d never hear you or your buddy Nick say!

Screwedby,

““The best thing would be for people to start operating with the concept of “we” instead of “me.” In the decisions they make in their daily lives, to think about their connection to their fellow citizens—that would be a wonderful thing. And if we start thinking like that, everything else would fall into place.””

The thing is, this is exactly what Nick, Mary, and others HAVE been saying, you just haven’t HEARD it that way!!

Example:  You say things based on the view of the “me” in that Wal-Mart doesn’t fit in ‘YOUR’ mold, while 138 million people (the “we") disagree with you!!

We have talked about “decisions” and how some people have to pay for the ‘bad’ decisions of others, ie: a woman chooses to end up a single mother of 4 children and in the view of a few here, she is to be rewarded for that ‘bad’ decision, with a ‘living wage’, getting paid more than the ‘good’ choice people!!  And, where’s the ‘WE’ when it comes to making societies ‘winners’ pay the way for societies ‘losers’ (redistrbution of wealth)?  If people would think about the impact of their actions, on everyone else, BEFORE they do them or at least LEARN from their mistakes, everybody would be better off!!  Trying to blame Wal-Mart for your problems, kind of reeks with the ‘me’ thing, don’t you think?

Jake,

This explains alot:

““In Heaven There is No Beer...”

But Ken, if you wipe out the “legions of blue-polo’ed associates,” that will just leave you, SDV, and me to drink all the beer.  Imagine that!

ScrewedbyWal-Mart in Anytown, America
Thursday, June 28 at 09:58 AM”

Maybe if they laid off the BEER, their heads would clear enough to see things differently (I know that my mind cleared when I stopped drinking about 25 years ago)!!  Take this for example, Garth Brooks did some work with Wal-Mart and even though he was one of Screwedby’s favorites, in a drunken stuper at a ‘cookout’, Screwedby, grabbed his Garth Brooks CD’s and threw them in the grill and burned them up, polluting the air, rational thinking, huh!!

ScrewedbyWal-Mart quotes Michael Moore on the social conscience and ‘love thy neighbor’ concepts and the need to cultivate this society away from exploitation business practices.

When you note Nick and RDS having the absence of these social conscience qualities in their postings representing the WalMart image and culture, it illustrates their type of anti-Christ ruthlessness and conscience devoid of recognizing the attitude of the WalMart business philosophy and its hostility to labor and people.

Sam Walton again-

Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton once said, “I pay low wages. I can take advantage of that. We’re going to be successful, but the basis is a very low-wage, low-benefit model of employment.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wal-Mart#_note-
iswalmartgood

“Is Wal-Mart Good for America?” PBS. November 16, 2004. Retrieved on February 24, 2007.

These are WalMart/Edelman ‘war room’ blogger frauds that crap on the American culture and as propagandist have no interest in anything outside of justification of the ‘love of money’ business exploitation model seen in the WalMart labor model and Nick’s strip club dancer economic analogies and endless sterile monotone economic psychopathy. Agnosticism and WalMart careful indifference to the impoverishment of their ‘associates’ do walk hand in hand with a spray paint misrepresentation anywhere they can get away with it. WalMart/Edelman psychopath graffiti from keyboard slobs bent on validation of welfare for billionaires and their business practices.

Which is why I repeat this item about such economic heroism and the WalMart/Walton/Bentonville wolves-

“The Shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep’s throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as a destroyer of liberty.” Abraham Lincoln

RDS-

So this “Screwed” cat (numero uno attack dog) actually burned his Garth Brooks CDs on a BBQ grill because Garth had some business thing going-on with WallyWorld???

I would have to call that just plain dumb!

Jake

SanDiego-

You are sounding a little uptight again, m’man........hope everything is OK!

Jake

Nothing is farther from the TRUTH!

“The thing is, this is exactly what Nick, Mary, and others HAVE been saying, you just haven’t HEARD it that way!!”

Wrong, BOBBO!  What you and Nick and others have consistently said over and over ad nauseum is that it’s basically “every person for himself!” “I got mine...now you get yours.” Nick has repeatedly tried to make the case that the U.S. Constitution makes no provisions for government mandated health care.  No...not specifically in so many words.  This is where some interpretation is required as to the intentions of the original framers of the constitution.  I think they thought much more in terms of the “WE” and not the “ME.” “We the People...sound familiar?”

I and others have contended that you can’t talk about “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” unless you are willing to define what the QUALITY of life should be.  A state of the art health care system shouldn’t be reserved for just the fat-cat do-nothing legislators in Washington.

If I were you RDS...I’d be thankful for those “single mothers with 4 children” out there.  They are the ones who keep you plied with your cheap under wear and white knee socks. Wal-Mart depends on these kinds of people to replenish its work force.

What you and Nick and others have consistently said over and over ad nauseum is that it’s basically “every person for himself!” “I got mine...now you get yours.” [Screwedbywal-mart]

Hi Screwedbywal-mart

I like the term YOYO economics.

Your
On
Your
Own

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Screwed

Are you seriously advancing the theory of the Founders as Collectivists? Read on.

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

From US Constitution.net:

“Welfare welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well] Source: AHD

“Welfare in today’s context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. THIS IS NOT THE MEANING OF THE WORD AS USED IN THE CONSTITUTION”.

“With respect to the words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution)connected with them. To take them in a literal & unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” - James Madison, Father of the Constitution

“Our tenet ever was… that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money.” -Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1817

“A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.” - Thomas Jefferson

“I am saying that Change to Win’s needs to check only their suggestion about imports in Canada. We have less manufacturing than America, since we are a much less populated country. I think they are confusing a Canadian distributor vs Canadian made. Very little in Walmart is Canadian made.” [Alex]

I was right!!!
This was taken from an article called DSN Retailing Today June, 2001.

“And, Wal-Mart constantly touts a buy-Canadian campaign. Wal-Mart purchases 80% of its products from Canadian suppliers as a matter of policy, although it should be noted that the vendors aren’t necessarily the manufacturers.”

We are lucky if we can buy a beaver hat or bottle of maple syrup made in Canada in a Walmart. This 80% is just more nonsense from Walmart.

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Screwedby,

“Wrong, BOBBO!  What you and Nick and others have consistently said over and over ad nauseum is that it’s basically “every person for himself!” “I got mine...now you get yours”

No, that is what you interpreted as to what we said, what we actually said, is “Personal Responsibility”, you are responsible for your lot in life!!  Now, let’s look at what the Constitution says, okay?  “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,”, this is what that actually means:

Life:  The right not to be injured or killed by someone else,

Liberty:  The right to determine what you want to do with your life, as long as it is within the law,

The pursuit of Happiness:  The right to seek the type of life you choose, without others trying to interfer, again, as long as it is within the law!!

“unless you are willing to define what the QUALITY of life should be.”

The entity that is responsible for defining what the QUALITY of life should be, is each individual!!  Example:  If you choose to go to college and I choose to drop out of school in 11th grade, I should not have the right ask for some of your money, when you become a lawyer and I end up a fry cook and can’t afford to support the 4 kids I have!!  You made your choice and I made mine, so we both should be held ‘Personally Responsible’ for the results of our choices!!  We both had the opportunity to a good education, but made different choices on how to use it!!  So, if you were to say, “I got mine...now you get yours”, no one could blame you, because you did what was required to get it and I didn’t!!

It’s About Healthcare, Stupid!

Quit interjecting all your blabber RDS, and using your specious and circular reasoning to sidetrack the issues.

Nobody I know has ever made the case that Wal-Mart workers or people who “choose to drop out of school in 11th grade,” should be compensated like a lawyer.  But now that you brought it up, I’ve known some lawyers who should be compensated like someone who dropped out of school in the 11th grade.

It’s about healthcare...Universal...or at the very least affordable healthcare.  It is a fundamental RIGHT to be healthy...THIS is what “Life” means.  Unfortunately, not everyone is blessed with good health.  But nobody should be in danger of declaring bankruptcy because they can’t afford to pay their medical bills.

A healthy population is going to be more productive in the long run...fewer days off from work, fewer short-term disability claims etc.  You would think ALL employers would be for that!

“Life:  The right not to be injured or killed by someone else” More slobber huh Bob?  Where do you come up with your crap?

Screwedby,

“But now that you brought it up, I’ve known some lawyers who should be compensated like someone who dropped out of school in the 11th grade.”

Like maybe, are you talking about these ‘Class Action’ lawyers!!

“It is a fundamental RIGHT to be healthy...THIS is what “Life” means.”

I think the term should be OPPORTUNITY to be healthy!!  If a person smokes, drinks to excess, is in a gang, shooting each other, is a ‘couch potato’, eats ‘junk food’, drives like an idiot, uses ‘drugs’, or does any of the many, many things that causes them to show up at the doctor or ER, do they have the RIGHT then, to ask someone else to pay for the results of their ‘poor’ behavior?  I, myself, haven’t been to a doctor in over 40 years, my medical service costs have been $0 in that time!!

“Unfortunately, not everyone is blessed with good health.”

This is true, but, the fact is, MOST medical problems are self inflicted, not inherent!! 

Then, there is the LEGAL end of medical care, people expect doctors to be ‘perfect’ in an imperfect field, so doctors have to run a battery of tests, that may not normally be needed, because if a problem should surface later, they might be sued, thus running up the cost!!

“A healthy population is going to be more productive in the long run”

This is exactly what most businesses have been pushing, living a healthier lifestyle!!  Good health starts BEFORE you go to the doctor, not AFTER!!

Thank You Dr. Bob!(RDS)

Just when I think I’ve seen you make about every stupid comment there is, you keep coming up with new material.  Do you have a “ghost writer,” or can we attribute this latest statement to your “genius” alone?

“...MOST medical problems are self inflicted.”

You’ll have to excuse me… I have to go out and get myself a good diagnosis of cancer!

Screwed, RDS has walked all over you on this blog.

Screwedby,

“You’ll have to excuse me… I have to go out and get myself a good diagnosis of cancer!”

You can be so ignorant at times, well, most of the time!!  Go into an ER sometime and see how many Cancer patients walk or are carried in!!  Car accidents, and self inflicted accidents in the home, way outnumber the daily cancer cases!!  Ask SDV, he says smoking is the cause of cancer, so even THAT is self inflicted, according to him!!  Broken bones, sprains, colds, and many other self inflicted injuries, outnumber diseases at a doctors office as well!!

But, I guess that drug overdoses, car accidents, home accidents, etc. aren’t self inflicted, according to you, they are things that are unavoidable, right?

Screwed

Am I missing something? Your justification for universal health care is because you believe that a healthy society is a more productive society? You believe that good health is a right? Well, where does it end? Are you advocating central planning for health care? Our government can’t keep track of billions in military hardware, can’t deliver the mail on time, can’t protect our nuclear secrets, can’t run an election and can’t manage our retirement, among other shortcomings, and you want a bunch of incompetent bureaucrats to manage something as complex and important as our health? You kill me, Screwed.

Good health is not a right. Who do we sue or prosecute when a 6-year old gets cancer? Isn’t someone to blame for denying her the good health to which she is entitled? Health care is a PERSONAL responsibility. The taxpayers should not subsidize health care for anyone but themselves. I have not used my current health plan ONCE in the four years I’ve had it yet my premium has more than doubled. I am paying for fat, out of shape smokers, fast food pigs, Jerry Springer cast members and other assorted losers. I am not denying that people have a right to smoke, eat junk food, drink, do drugs or generally behave like morons. What I AM denying is the idea that those of us who behave rationally, live healthy and take personal responsibility for the things that affect us have an obligation to provide for those who refuse to make good choices.

Health care is not a right. Good health is not a right. Your health insurance, like home insurance, car insurance, life insurance, etc. is designed to protect you against unforeseen problems. It is not intended for you to use to run to the ER every time you sniffle. Insurance is akin to hedging your bets. You hope that you never need it. But you buy it to protect yourself in the event you have a problem.

When did health insurance become a right? Please show me the section of the US Constitution that says anything about a right to free healthcare or good health? If you can’t produce the text, it doesn’t exist. And spare me the argument regarding the ‘General Welfare’ clause. I previously posted quotes from Madison and Jefferson on this. None of the Founders ever advocated redistribution of wealth. Not one Founder would have approved of seizure of property at gunpoint (the IRS) to redistribute it to the idiot masses (pork barrel spending, social programs, government Ponzi schemes).

Someone show me the law that says insurance is to be provided to every citizen and paid for by the contributing members of society. Show me the law that says Wal-Mart has a legal requirement to provide health insurance. Tell me how it is morally correct to force someone, against their will, to pay for the shortcomings of others.

Just a Reminder, Big T

These are just two of the stupid things RDS has said in the last 12 hours:

“Life:  The right not to be injured or killed by someone else”
“...MOST medical problems are self inflicted.”

Yeah, that’s right Big T--- RDS “walked all over” me.  Most of the time RDS is too busy tripping over himself to be “walking all over” anyone else.

Furthermore...get back to the point.  I made the statement that it’s about Universal Healthcare.  Then RDS goes off on his rant about “self-inflicted in-home accidents,” “car accidents,” and “drug overdoses.” Then he gives us this newsflash that smoking causes cancer.

Do you know how many different types of cancer there are Dr. Bob?  I bet you never even heard of a Thymoma until now!

Also-- I wasn’t aware that colds were “self-inflicted.” I’m sure most people, November thru January, are doing their darndest to catch a good cold or the flu.

Lastly...let’s talk about broken bones.  About a year ago, I was splitting some firewood with a hydraulic wood splitter.  I said to myself..."Gee I bet it would feel really great if I got my hand caught between the end of the log and the stopper at the end of the splitter.  I think I’ll just put my hand there to self-inflict a little pain on myself!” That’s why they call them accidents you doofus!

Tell it to Someone Who Cares, Nick!

I sure hope you aren’t trying to engage me Nick!  It seems we’ve been down this road once or twice before!

You see it your way...others see it my way.

Why don’t you make your case to the 43 million (and rising) in this country that either can’t afford healthcare insurance or for whatever reasons are left without it.

Probably one of the most silly things I have ever read on this site:

“Unfortunately, not everyone is blessed with good health.”

This is true, but, the fact is, MOST medical problems are self inflicted, not inherent!!  [Bob]

Maybe if you are in your 20’s.  I think Bob should go into an nursing or retirement home and tell everyone his view.

I believe countries like the United States will be moving toward universal healthcare.  I have never heard one person say that they would like the American system.

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Alex,

If what you say is the case, then please enlighten the rest of us why do your fellow Canadians take the time (and spend the money) to go “south of the border” for some of that good ol’ world-class American healthcare that you seem to heckle so much…

Before you get your panties in a bunch, please know that I’m not knocking your system or crapping on your country—your system (and others like it) is actually quite good for preventive maintenance, and other routine stuff along the lines of what RDS said about “living a healthier lifestyle”, but for one of your countrymen to sit-around at home to wait wait 9 months for surgery is just plain nuts!

Big T - I agree 100%, RDS most definitely won this round.  I look forward to seeing more of the same as certain people need to be shown a lesson or two in diplomacy.

Bill

Wait times are improving. The Ontario Government provides websites to measure wait times. Such is the example below:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/wait_mn.html

As far as wait times is concerned, I would ask you what the wait times are for the 46 million Americans that do not have healthcare?  Are they even in the lineup?  Makes things go faster when you eliminate a large amount of your population.

It is interesting to note also that Americans are coming up here in increasing numbers for surgery because it is preformed at a much better cost. I was talking to a nurse that said they do a lot of knee and hip replacements of American patients for example.

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Screwedby,

“Then he gives us this newsflash that smoking causes cancer.”

If you had taken the time to read, I said that SDV advocates this, not me!!

“I think I’ll just put my hand there to self-inflict a little pain on myself!” That’s why they call them accidents you doofus!”

In reality, these are not really accidents, they are really ‘Human Error’!!  Two cars running into each other, is called an accident, but it is really ‘Human Error”!!  An accident, is something that is caused without human intervention, ie: lightning hitting your house, a flood, the wind blowing a tree down, etc., but, when you are operating a logsplitter and stick your hand between the log and the stopper, that is not an accident, it’s called not paying attention to safety procedures and therefore unintentally self inflicted!!  A lot of clumsy people do these types of things to themselves, so don’t feel bad for being careless!!  And, you call me the doofus, I wasn’t the one who stuck his hand where it didn’t belong!!  Remember what I said about not seeing a doctor in over 40 years?  That’s because I’m careful and practice safety!!

Screwedby,

BTW:  How many brewskis did you have before this ‘accident’ happened?

“Then he gives us this newsflash that smoking causes cancer.”

If you had taken the time to read, I said that SDV advocates this, not me!!

United States Code TITLE 15 > CHAPTER 36 > § 1333
§ 1333. Labeling; requirements; conspicuous statement-
SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And May Complicate Pregnancy.
SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Cigarette Smoke Contains Carbon Monoxide.
From the American Lung Association

Smoking 101 Fact Sheet
March 2006
Cigarette smoking has been identified as the most important source of preventable morbidity and premature mortality worldwide. Smoking-related diseases claim an estimated 438,000 American lives each year, including those affected indirectly, such as babies born prematurely due to prenatal maternal smoking and victims of “secondhand” exposure to tobacco’s carcinogens. Smoking costs the United States over $167 billion each year in health-care costs including $92 billion in mortality-related productivity loses and $75.5 billion in excess medical expenditures.
Cigarette smoke contains over 4,800 chemicals, 69 of which are known to cause cancer. Smoking is directly responsible for approximately 90 percent of lung cancer deaths and approximately 80-90 percent of COPD (emphysema and chronic bronchitis) deaths.
About 8.6 million people in the U.S. have at least one serious illness caused by smoking. That means that for every person who dies of a smoking-related disease, there are 20 more people who suffer from at least one serious illness associated with smoking.
Among current smokers, chronic lung disease accounts for 73 percent of smoking-related conditions. Even among smokers who have quit chronic lung disease accounts for 50 percent of smoking-related conditions.
etc., etc., etc.
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=39853

WalMart- We are the world’s leading retailer of preventable cancer with Nick and RDS as WalMart worship imbeciles who attempt excusing our actions and evade rationality and responsibility asserting an insane declaration that smoking does not cause cancer.

When Nick and RDS state that smoking does not cause cancer, it illustrates WalMart’s comparative attitude on health care. Denial and severe psychopathic hostility against people in the WalMart abusive and exploitation business model.

Fatso Michael “The Fraud” Moore talks about the wonders of Cuba’s health care system in his new “movie”. What he doesn’t tell you is that only foreigners can get treatment in Cuba and then they have to bring their own medicine, blankets, gowns, soap, etc. He doesn’t tell you that when Castro needed a doctor, he had to find one abroad. If Cuba’s healthcare system is so wonderful, why is Castro flying in foreign doctors?

The Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic are full of wealthy Canadians who can pay for care and don’t want to wait forever for treatment.

Canada did not get MRI machines until late 1999!

I went to college with a girl from Canada. She said that in the northern sections of the country, hospitals sometimes shut down for two or three months per year. This is because they are given X amount of money per year and, when they spend it all, they can’t get more. So they shut down.

In Great Britain, another socialized medicine country, Margaret Thatcher, who was Prime Minister in the 1980s, couldn’t get a necessary surgery done! She flew to the US for care. If she can’t get good care in England, what about the average person?

True, many Americans are not happy with our system. That is mostly because most Americans always want everything and they want to pay nothing for it. There are people like myself who believe that free market initiatives could fix our system but that the AMA, the insurers and the government do not want this.

Looks Like Nick Just Set off the Keyboard Sobber Alarm Again!

“That is mostly because most Americans always want everything and they want to pay nothing for it.”

Yeah...I’m puzzled too!  Most Americans want nothing to do with George Bush’s Iraq war, yet we are all paying for it!

Am I Repeating Myself?

Didn’t I say you trip over yourself most of the time RDS?  You say something really stupid, then you spend the next two posts trying to spin your way out of it!

“I said that SDV advocates this, not me!!”

So which is it, Dr. Bob?  Do you acknowledge smoking causes cancer or don’t you?  Oh...I forgot, you held up your 85 year old father as a scientific and definitive study that smoking does NOT cause cancer.  Quit your usual double talk!

And what is your whole point anyway?  Are you saying that nobody who is injured in an “accident” is entitled to medical care unless they were injured in a Volcano eruption, tornado, hurricane, or lightning strike?

“The Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic are full of wealthy Canadians who can pay for care and don’t want to wait forever for treatment.” [Nick]

Thanks for the info about wealthy Canadians Nick. Now take a few seconds to write about those less fortunate Cleveland citizens. Do they get express treatment from “The Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic”? 

As far as healthcare in the far north of Canada. How would your for profit system service these people? Would the Shriners take up the cause since there is not a hope in hell of breaking even let alone making a profit?
Maybe you could have a propeller plane fly in once a month for a few hours with a doctor and a few drugs in his handbag.

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SDV,

“When Nick and RDS state that smoking does not cause cancer, it illustrates WalMart’s comparative attitude on health care. Denial and severe psychopathic hostility against people in the WalMart abusive and exploitation business model.”

Tell it to Screwedby, he seems to believe cancer is NOT self inflicted!!

Screwedby,

“Do you acknowledge smoking causes cancer or don’t you?  Oh...I forgot, you held up your 85 year old father as a scientific and definitive study that smoking does NOT cause cancer.”

See if you can follow this logic, SOME people are prone to getting cancer and SOME are not, smoking does not CAUSE cancer, but can PROMOTE it, that is why some smokers get cancer and others don’t!!  What causes skin cancer, smoking?  No, it is sometimes caused by over exposure to the sun, by SOME people, yet, NOT ALL people who go out in the sun, get skin cancer!!  It is like a lot of other illnesses, take allergies for instance, some people have allergies and some never get them!!

“And what is your whole point anyway?  Are you saying that nobody who is injured in an “accident” is entitled to medical care unless they were injured in a Volcano eruption, tornado, hurricane, or lightning strike?”

My point was this, we refer to ‘Human Error’ as an ‘accident’ and ‘Accidents’ as ‘Acts of God’, mainly so we don’t have to take responsibility for our actions!!  Example: If I build my house in an area that experiences a lot of tornados, can I act supprised when I get hurt when one hits my house?  Sure, a person is entitled to get medical care, even if they are injured by ‘Human Error’, but they are not entitled to ask ME to pay for it!!  They should be expected to take responsibility for their own medical bills, when they do things that are unsafe and they get injured by that action!!

If I smoke and get cancer, is it your responsibility to pay for my treatment?  Universal healthcare, makes it your responsibility, just like owning a home makes you responsible to pay for the local schools, even if you have no children!!  So, if you practice health safety and I am reckless, why should you have to pay for my carelessness?

It Feels So Good When I Stop!

Passerby to Man beating his head against a rock:
“Sir, why are you beating your head against a rock?”

Man: “Because it feels so good when I stop!”

WMW Readers to ScrewedbyWal-Mart:
“Screwed, why are you trying to have a conversation with RDS?”

ScrewedbyWal-Mart: “Because it feels so GOOD when I stop!”

By the way RDS, who is this “we” you keep referring to?  You’re the first person I’ve seen who has tried to mince the word “accident” into one with a small “a” and a capital “A.”

“ Sure, a person is entitled to get medical care, even if they are injured by ‘Human Error’, but they are not entitled to ask ME to pay for it!!  They should be expected to take responsibility for their own medical bills, when they do things that are unsafe and they get injured by that action!!” [Bob]

Yet if the fire trucks pass by his house to save lives and property, would it not be the same to say “they are entitled to emergency services, but they are not entitled to ask ME to pay for it!!” or if a police car speeds past his house to catch a burgler who stole diamonds and jewellry from a store, why doesn’t the person above say, “the jewellry store set up in that part of town. They made to choice so they should take personal responsibility.”

Truely I think the fine people in the United States are only afraid of the unknown. Once you get universal healthcare (over time) you will ask why it took so long.

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See if You Can Follow This Logic, RDS

“See if you can follow this logic...smoking does not CAUSE cancer, but can PROMOTE it.” RDS

OK, then to use “your logic” RDS, “playing Russian Roulette with a loaded gun does not cause deaths...it PROMOTES them.” OR, maybe you like this one: “Putting your cat in the microwav to dry it off, will not cause the death of your cat...it will PROMOTE its demise.”

Screwedby,

What you say isn’t logic, it’s stupidity!!  Does driving drunk cause car accidents?  Or, do some people who drive drunk cause accidents?  Is it the beer that causes the accident or the person?  Does EVERYONE who drives drunk get into an accident?  Or, does being drunk promote the ability to get into an accident?  I know it is hard for you to follow a logical argument, by at least try!!

“By the way RDS, who is this “we” you keep referring to?”

WE, the taxpayers, who would pay for the Universal Healthcare System!!

Alex,

“Yet if the fire trucks pass by his house to save lives and property, would it not be the same to say “they are entitled to emergency services, but they are not entitled to ask ME to pay for it!!” or if a police car speeds past his house to catch a burgler who stole diamonds and jewellry from a store, why doesn’t the person above say, “the jewellry store set up in that part of town.”

This is a poor argument, as the people who OWN the house or the store, pay property taxes, which supports the Fire Dept. and Police Dept.!!  Also, there is quite a difference, between a thief and a tornado!!  Under Universal Healthcare, even people who Don’t pay taxes, will be eligible to use the system!!

BTW:  If 2 gang bangers, shot each other, most taxpayers are not too happy to see them get health care, that taxpayers end up paying for!!  They would rather see them get a job and start paying taxes themselves!!  The same goes for that thief!!

Bob you said “ Under Universal Healthcare, even people who Don’t pay taxes, will be eligible to use the system!!”

So you are suggesting that people who don’t pay taxes are not eligible for fire or police protection?
You are not clear on your belief system either because do you not have medicade for those who can not afford insurance? You are paying right now, even though the quality of the healthcare is probably about as low as one can get I would think.

The fact of the matter is that you already enjoy socialized services but you don’t want to admit it. I would think that you are ok with it also. Am I right or not?  Your system is expensive and layered and does not give Americans the best value.

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Alex,

“The fact of the matter is that you already enjoy socialized services but you don’t want to admit it.”

Are you trying to point out, the fact that everyone already has medical care available to them?

“would think that you are ok with it also. Am I right or not?”

No, we are not okay with that, that is why we want change to a more ‘Personal Responsibility’ system!!

“Your system is expensive and layered and does not give Americans the best value.”

Correct, and that is what we want to change, but we don’t want to “throw out the baby with the bath water”, we want to maintain service, while getting rid of the red tape and reducing cost, by making people more health conscious, financially responsible for minor treatment and less emotion based lawsuits!!  We want to FIX the problems, not ruin the system!!

“.....by making people more health conscious, financially responsible for minor treatment and less emotion based lawsuits!!  We want to FIX the problems, not ruin the system!!”

How can you put out a fire set on a cart-load of firewood with only a cup of water? [Chinese Proverb]

From what I have read, the incredible expense is from the layers of administration of the U.S. healthcare system.
You are focused on secondary costs.

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From The council on Foreign Relations:

Rival Healthcare Models
Elsewhere in the world, healthcare systems are much less reliant on private sector support—and much less expensive. For example, the U.S. system costs 83 percent more per capita than the Canadian system, where public funds collected through taxes pay for up to 70 percent of healthcare coverage. A number of East Asian systems also enjoy high quality of care for a much lower cost. An article in Cambridge University’s Journal of Social Policy looks at what it calls the “remarkable” performance of healthcare systems in Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Singapore, where the authors argue the legacy of British colonialism has encouraged a strong state role in the healthcare system. 

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T O T A K E O U T
T H E T R A S H
A T T H E E N D O F
T H E D A Y
B E F O R E T H E H O L I D A Y
Thank You

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R E M E M B E R
ONLY YOU CAN
PREVENT
FOREST FIRES!

Thank You

R E M E M B E R
GUNS DON’T
KILL PEOPLE--
PEOPLE
KILL PEOPLE

Thank You

R E M E M B E R
The Maine!

R E M E M B E R
The Alamo!

A lot of remembering going on here. That’s probably good though!

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TRY TO REMEMBER

TRY TO REMEMBER

Alzheimer’s Patient in LaLa Land

Ok. I will remind you again:

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TRY TO REMEMBER

Alzheimer’s Patient in LaLa Land

Ok. I will remind you again:

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“Damn, we were dumb!”

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“Oh yeah?  We were even dumber!”

You are blaspheming the martyrs of the Anti Wal-Mart Movement, Remembering!

I see a noxious cloud of bad karma gathering about you.

“Here’s the big thought Wal-Mart missed: Price is not enough anymore,” says Todd S. Slater, an analyst at Lazard Capital Markets.