New Report Examines Wal-Mart’s Impact on Urban Business

We don’t know the exact methodology used, but a valid study would also compare with another area with a similar demographic profile and no Walmart store during the same period.

Without this type of comparison it is hard to separate the effect of Walmart from changes in the overall economy.

A Walmart in any city or town is an eyesore.
It’s blue, ugly and most of them look exactly the same.

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

“It’s blue, ugly and most of them look exactly the same. “

No Kidding!  We could apply the same type of statement to any other national brand store, just change the color.  What kind of dumb statement is that Alex?

You’re Brilliant, “mary”

“We could apply the same type of statement to any other national brand store, just change the color.”

Yes we could!  Perhaps you are more fond of Home Depot’s industrial orange color?

Yes, they’re all “ugly and most of them look exactly the same.”

What’s your point?

oh bs walmart puts others out of busines.the others put themselves out of business because of their reluctance to lower their prices to be competetive with walmart and others.when are you morons on here going to get your heads out of your rear ends and stop buying all the bs and lies by nassar,alex goldschmidt and etc on here?walmart dont control what others charge for the same items.thats what you idiots on here like screwed by,ken and etc are not smart enough and too ufcw union brainwashed to understand

“What’s your point?”

Redirect to you Alex.

“The idea is to get some actual data to inform the debate.”

Sounds good, Phil, but “actual data” and an informed debate are the last thing m att hew vantress and his pro Wal-Mart followers are interested in. If your research casts a negative light on Wal-Mart, you must be an anti-capitalist commie!

For those interested, there are multiple studies that show Wal-Mart doesn’t create sales but “pulls” them from existing business. Wal-Mart brings no “growth” merely redistributes a communities resources.

In Maine, Wal-Mart captured an average $7.8 million from local/family businesses in their host towns during the first year of operation. ~ Source: Georgeanne Artz, “The Impact of Wal-Mart on Retail Market Structure in Maine,” unpublished thesis, University of Maine, 1999

Once Again “mary,” What’s Your Problem?

I think Alex was expressing the sentiments of so many others.  He obviously has a problem with that “homgenized” and “cookie cutter look” that Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Taco Bell, and other big box retatailers have spread across America “from sea to shining sea!”

I remember well Wal-Mart trying to get in 15 miles away from where I live. I went to the public hearings back then in 1995. During the “economic impacts” part of their presentation Wal-Mart stated for the record “That they fully expected to take 68% of EXISTING RETAIL SALES.” Anyone who had half a brain realized they weren’t creating any “new” sales. They were just taking sales from people already in business.
Taking that huge percentage of sales meant an empty business district. Wal-Mart also stated for the record the percentage of retail square footage they expected TO GO PERMENENTLY VACANT. I don’t remember what that figure was-but as I recall it was pretty high.
About 2 hours from where I live is a Wal-Mart supercenter--AND AN EMPTY BUSINESS DISTRICT. The local politicians there wanted Wal-Mart and bent over backwards to get them. Unfortunately, citizen opposition was not enough and not well organized--so the Wal-Mart came. The local politicians there are thrilled with Wal-Mart--but I would like to know what is so thrilling with empty stores, boarded up buildings, dirty streets, and sidewalks? And of course plenty of parking for those few businesses that have managed to hang on?
And do you know what is laughable? On Saturday when this Wal-Mart should be filled with customers--it is empty. Why? Because there is another Wal-Mart about 1 hour away that has CHEAPER PRICES!! So on Saturday’s most folks living there drive the hour and shop at another Wal-Mart. Go figure.
I came to the conclusion many years ago that Wal-Mart destroys just about everything it touches. And the more I read about them the more I am convinced that that is not going to change anytime soon.

Also Redirect to you Mary:

But coming from someone who lives in a socialist society [Canada] where they have rationed, albeit free, healthcare and government handouts… Nice Alex… very nice!~mary in

Mary...how did you spend your government Stimulus?
Or should I call it your government handout? You must be living in a socialist country, right Mary? According to your definition anyway.

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

Jane,

“Wal-Mart stated for the record “That they fully expected to take 68% of EXISTING RETAIL SALES.” Anyone who had half a brain realized they weren’t creating any “new” sales.”

And, anyone with half a brain, should also see that if they take 68% of existing sales, and they have 100% sales, there must be 32% in “NEW” sales!!

“Taking that huge percentage of sales meant an empty business district.”

So, you are saying that if a business district is “soaking” customers with ‘higher prices’ the community leaders should protect those businesses, because they are already there, right?  As any ‘new’ business would take customers from an existing business, ALL ‘new’ businesses should be STOPPED, right?  Therefore, the cry should be, NO MORE COMPETITION, we already have enough businesses, who cares if we have to pay more, right?

Whoa Jane!  Look Out!  RDS Is Starting to Throw His Fuzzy Math At You!

Pretty soon we’re going to see RDS use terms like “Zero Sum Game.” I doubt if he even knows what that is!

According to the RDS Big Book of Math, if you take 100% of the existing disposable income that consumers have to spend on things like groceries, household items etc. and give 68% of it to one retailer, i.e. Wal-Mart, this somehow means 32% MORE sales have occurred.  In other words, just because somebody buys stuff from Wal-Mart, doesn’t mean they will stop buying from the places they used to shop at.  I guess one can never have too many packages of hot dogs!  (I know...I promised!)

...anyone with half a brain...

68% of the existing sales may very well be 100% of Wal-Mart’s sales. RDS, you need to stay away from numbers. They are not your friend!

The fact is, the ‘cream’ of the existing sales stays in the local community. 100% of Wal-Mart’s cream goes to Bentonville.

“If you care about a local economy, you will hate Wal-Mart.” ~ Rosemary Atkinson

Screwedby,

“According to the RDS Big Book of Math, if you take 100% of the existing disposable income that consumers have to spend on things like groceries, household items etc. and give 68% of it to one retailer, i.e. Wal-Mart, this somehow means 32% MORE sales have occurred.”

But, I thought according to YOU, Wal-Mart puts everyone else “OUT OF BUSINESS”!!  Therefore, YOUR fuzzy math, would say that, people stop 32% of their spending, when Wal-Mart comes to town, as there is no where else to spend it!! 

Also, if I have $120.00 in ‘disposible income’ each week and I am able to get $140.00 worth of items at Wal-Mart (because of the lower price), compared to the $120.00 I would have to pay elsewhere, would that not result in higher sales figures?  In other words, if I paid $4.00 for a prescription that cost me $85.00 elsewhere, wouldn’t I have $81.00 more to spend on ‘other things’ I need, thus the store sells more product?  Or. as Robert said, he saved $1.09 on a package of Hot Dogs, so he had an extra $1.09 to spend on something else, he ended up with 2 items, where the Safeway shopper ends up with only 1 item!!

That was the Sam Walton business model, “Spend LESS and get MORE”, it’s funny that some people still don’t understand that, after all these years!!

Someone needs to go back to school and learn their math! Wal-Mart stated they fully expected to take 68% of existing retail sales from stores in our area. Obviously, 100% minus 68% equals 32%. But this 32% of sales is NOT NEW SALES. They are sales that already exist.
Just about every independent retailer is affected when Wal-Mart moves in. Some are affected more and some less. The percentage you lose and what you can do to survive will determine whether you make it or close up.
In the town where the Wal-Mart is about 2 hours away from me, there was a small local grocery store. This store serviced the walking folks and many seniors as it was in the center of town. Well, when Wal-Mart arrived they lost about 20% of their business. This 20% may seem small, but it was enough to close them up. Presently, the building is all boarded up with a for sale sign on it. It’s been like that for about 5 years.
Wal-Mart designs their stores so you will BUY EVERYTHING FROM THEM. Wal-Mart supporters tend to think that shoppers go to Wal-Mart, buy some things there, and then go to other retailers and shop. But the facts don’t support this. It is quite common in may small towns to see a THRIVING WAL-MART AND AN EMPTY BUSINESS DISTRICT. Or if you don’t see that you see an empty business district AND AN EMPTY WAL-MART. Take your pick, neither picture is pretty.
I have a challenge for you Wal-Mart supporters. GO INTO BUSINESS FOR YOURSELF. Open up a retail store. Any kind of store. Sell clothing, books, hardware, kitchen appliances, furniture, arts and crafts, lawn and garden supplies, music, tv’s and stereo’s, whatever. But make sure it is your store with your money.  Try it out for a few years and learn what it takes to get and stay in business. I can guarantee if you do that you will change the way you see business.
Most people today have no CONCEPT of what it takes to get into business and stay in business. And as Al Norman of Sprawl-Busters would say “Wal-Mart is not the beginning of cometition, it is the end of it.”

Sorry, spelling mistake. “Wal-Mart is not the beginning of COMPETITION it is the end of it.”

“Once Again “mary,” What’s Your Problem? “

I have no problem at all.  I LOVE the big box stores like Walmart, Home Depot, Best Buy etc.  I get great deals and awesome selection.  Paint the building neon orange if you want… I don’t care.  Just keep bringing me the selection and good prices and I’ll continue to shop there.

As for Alex’s comment on “my” stimulus check.... 1) I have not gotten it yet 2) it’s not a government handout when the government is RETURNING my money to me that I paid in taxes (unlike others who pay little to no taxes but still get a check… now that’s a government “handout").  Maybe they should not have taxed me so much.

But don’t worry Liberals… I mean Progressives… If O’Bama makes it into office look forward to alot of new taxes to pay for his social programs.  The citizens of Maryland already know what that is like with the new Governor who also has one of the lowest approval ratings of any previous Governor.

I Tried to Warn You Jane!

Jane I tried to warn you about steering clear of RDS when he starts throwing numbers around.  I say this not because I doubt your math abilities, but because according to RDS’s math reasoning, if you start with 10 apples, take away 6 oranges, you’ll end up with 12 bananas.

“mary”:  When the “liberals” or if you prefer “Progressives” (they’re not the same in my book), move into the White House, I can’t say what the tax policy will be.  It wouldn’t surprise me if there would be new taxes.  After 5 years of George Bush’s war, where would you suggest we get the money from?  Come to think of it, where did George get all the money from?

I do know one thing.  After November when the Democrats are back in office, you aren’t going to see all the conservatives on Capitol Hill, stretching their hands across the aisle and singing Kum Ba Ya!  No...they will be the one’s fillibustering and dragging their feet on any “programs” or legislation the new administration proposes.

Jane,

“Most people today have no CONCEPT of what it takes to get into business and stay in business.”

Yeah, you got that right!!  And, that’s why they go out of business!!  The way to stay in business, is to KEEP your customers and to do that, you have to give them what they want, or they will go to where they can get it!!  If they want a toaster and you have only 2 models, chances are that they will go to the place that has 10 models, where they can have a choice!!  Also, if your toasters cost $15.00 and $18.00, people will go to the store whose prices range from $8.00 to $15.00!!

“Or if you don’t see that you see an empty business district AND AN EMPTY WAL-MART.”

Does that mean tha everyone in town stopped shopping?

“it’s not a government handout when the government is RETURNING my money to me that I paid in taxes (unlike others who pay little to no taxes but still get a check… now that’s a government “handout").~mary

So lets see. Mary is getting her own money back (vs money just being printed up) and that’s ok because she paid for it.
Yet she says stupid things when we get our healthcare back from our own money (taxes) just like police, defence, and all other government services but that is evil?
The real problem is that people like mary can’t think outside the culture of her community.

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

hey jane why didnt you go bitch and moan when target home depot,and all the ufcw union stores andlow cost grocery stores were built?

“When the “liberals” or if you prefer “Progressives” (they’re not the same in my book), move into the White House, I can’t say what the tax policy will be. “

That statement alone sure helps define Screwed and liberals that much more.  Let me help you out here from your delusional state.

1.  Liberals = Progressives There’s no if’s and’s or but’s on that one.  Different name, same stance and policies.
2.  Taxes have only one direction to go under Liberals, I mean Progressives, and that’s up!!

If you want to know where the money should come from that’s simple..... how about STOP SPENDING so much that way you won’t have to look for new revenue sources.  Just CUT THE BUDGET.  I’m not a huge fan if GWB and I’m a conservative.  But that pretty much explains why I’m not a huge fan.

Where the Hell have you been for the last 7½ years, mary?

We’ve gone from a ‘Liberal’ prosperity with a surplus to a ‘Conservative’ recession with record debt. What was the price of gasoline when the President was ‘liberal’? What is it now?

The word “delusional” should stick in your throat.

For years Democrats were labeled “tax & spend”. Republicans borrow & spend with no thought of the paying it back.

As a wild-eyed liberal I’d prefer to pay as we go rather than mortgaging the future.

Well Said, Ken!

If there’s two things that define people like “mary,” they would be delusion and confusion.

It’s easy to see why she has lots of company.  If you’d ask 10 people at random what the difference is between a “Liberal” and a “Progressive,” you would likely get 10 different answers.

I’ve said many times on this blog that I believe the term “Progressive” has been hijacked by Liberals in much the same sense the “Religious Right” has hijacked the Republican Party.

I believe many Liberals consider themselves “Progressives,” but not every Progressive considers himself a “Liberal.” Too many Liberals in my opinion support and maintain the status quo.  The status quo in Washington is NOT acceptable.

For more than 30 years, the right wing noise machine has tried to make the term “Liberal” a dirty word.  It’s no surprise that liberals latched onto the term “Progressive” to combat this!

Progressivism is winning the day in American politics.  As a Progressive, people usually find it hard to hang a label of “Democrat” or “Republican” on me.  To some people I sound very “Conservative” at times.  It’s people like me that serve as a a reality check for those “serious political pundits” who think they have their finger on the pulse of America.

Basically, I would define"Liberals by their preference for using taxpayer money to help better society.  Progressives on the other hand, are those who focus on using government power to make large institutions and large corporations play by a set of rules.

As I’ve also said many times, I consider some of my Progressive heros to be men like Teddy Roosevelt, Robert M. La Follette, Joseph Folk, and Charles Evans Hughes.

“mary” and others who come here to sing their praises to Wal-Mart, would be doing themselves a favor if they studied the history of Progressives in this country.  I believe the economic conditions that existed in the early 20th century, is very similar to the conditions that exist in the U.S. and world today.  If “mary” is truly honest with herself, she’ll see that there are many disillusioned, discontented, and disconnected Republicans who also consider themselves to be Progressive!

I can’t agree with you definition of ‘liberal’, Screwed, and, if the truth were told, I’m probably not a flaming Liberal, but I love to call myself that because it makes mary and her ilk grind their teeth.

...men like Teddy Roosevelt...

Have you ever seen The Wind and the Lion?

Thanks For the Tip, Ken!

“The Wind and the Lion” sounds like it’s woth seeing.  I haven’t seen it, but how can you go wrong with a cast like that.

I can understand some of your reservations with my “definition” of Liberals.  I generalized and painted with a pretty broad brush stroke.  But it “makes me grind my teeth” when uninformed people like “mary” try to equate “Liberals” with “Progressives.”

“Basically, I would define"Liberals by their preference for using taxpayer money to help better society.  Progressives on the other hand, are those who focus on using government power to make large institutions and large corporations play by a set of rules. “...... ScrewedbyWal-Mart

“The answer, in my opinion, is no - there is a fundamental difference when it comes to core economic issues. It seems to me that traditional “liberals” in our current parlance are those who focus on using taxpayer money to help better society. A “progressive” are those who focus on using government power to make large institutions play by a set of rules. “ .... David Sirota (The Huffington Post, October 19th, 2005)

Have you been brainwashed by reading the Huffington Post alot lately Screwed?  It seems you can’t provide any original thoughts but instead COPY someone elses as your own.

The Democrats tax and spend on social programs. 

The Republicans tax, borrow, and spend on anti-social programs.

You true Conservatives are a pathetic bunch. You’ve been reduced to lonely voices in the wilderness.  Your heros are corrupt, your ideology discredited. It’s too bad, too, because basically I agree with fiscal conservatism.

“brainwashed by reading the Huffington Post”

“Brainwashed?” Some might call it “becoming better informed” about key issues in today’s society.  You should try it more often, “mary!”

It appears that in making my hurried post, I neglected to do two things.  I didn’t close the quotes.  Using quotes usually indicates that the words belong to someone else.  The second thing I didn’t do is provide a source for the quotes.  I don’t think this blog always follows APA protocol.  I never claimed the words of David Sirota were my own.  I used Sirota’s quote because agree with him!

Now that I know you know how to Google, get yourself informed about the history of Progressives and them maybe we can have an intelligent discussion.  But whatever you do, don’t equate “liberals” with Progressives.

Ken:

“true Conservatives?” Is there such a thing?  I think we all get into trouble when we assign labels to people like “liberal,” “conservative,” “progressive,” “socialist,” “communist” etc.

I think there’s an ever-growing majority of Americans, both Democrat and Republican, who share many of the same ideological and political ideals.  They’re the vast, voiceless, unrepresented middle ground, who feel betrayed and disconnected with the “leadership” in Washington.

Screwed: Whats the opposite of Progressive? REgressive,as in REpublican?

“I think there’s an ever-growing majority of Americans, both Democrat and Republican, who share many of the same ideological and political ideals.  They’re the vast, voiceless, unrepresented middle ground, who feel betrayed and disconnected with the “leadership” in Washington"---Agreed,some are called Independents. How about a new terminology-Progressive Independents?Or, Independent Populists?

I Agree With You Enitirely, ddrb!

The Independent Populist Party or the Progressive Independent Party has a nice sound to it.

I am many others have been saying for a long time, we need a viable 3rd party in this country just to shake up the status quo and break the gridlock in Washington.  It could act as the “tie breaker” or “deal breaker” and hold the other two parties more accountable.  We’ve got 3 branches of government which supposedly serves as a “check and balance,” why not 3 parties?

“I am many others”?

This should have been, I and many others…

I thought I should correct this, before the wise asses like “mary” and RDS accuse me of having multiple personalities!

Screwedby,

“I am many others have been saying for a long time, we need a viable 3rd party in this country just to shake up the status quo and break the gridlock in Washington.”

You don’t hold a lock on that opinion, others have tried that with the ‘Libertarian Party’ and the Democrats and Republicans have set the stage that makes that hard to do!!

Problem is, your group seems to want MORE Government intrusion into people’s lives, and some of us want LESS!!  Please answer this question:  Name me 1 thing that a person can do in this country, that the government doesn’t regulate and control?

Screwdby: If you don’t ever read anything else,go over to Alternet. Chalmers Johnson(a fave) has a review posted today of Sheldon Wolins’ new book,"Democracy Incorporated:Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism.” This is a first rate review and exceedingly well worth the trip!

P.S.-one more.How about Progressive Populist Party?

Name me 1 thing that a person can do in this country, that the government doesn’t regulate and control?

RDS in

Uh, the rights of workers to unionize here in the U.S.? The Department of Labor has NOT regulated the rights of workers-indeed by INACTION has been a defacto labor busting tool for the past 8 years.

BTW: The government does not regulate and control illegal migration into this country,nor does it regularly enforce actions against employers illegally hiring illegals.

I’m Surprised it Took RDS So Long!

I fully expected to see another one of RDS’ gibberish-filled posts!

“You don’t hold a lock on that opinion...”

When I say, “I and many others,” does it sound like I believe that I “hold a lock” on a particular view?

I see you conviently chose to skip over or ignore the operative word: “viable.”

I and “many others” don’t consider either Ron Paul or Ralph Nader viable. The Libertarian mindset appeals to people like you RDS… that is, people with a phobia or paranoia about government control.

You need to read and keep reading the U.S. Constitution until you understand it.  “We the people in order to establish a more perfect union...” Wasn’t this the basis of the American Revolution?  My problem with “government” begins when it no longer represents or is accountable to the will of the majority of people.  “Taxation without representation.” Ring a bell?

ddrb:  Thanks for the tip on the Chalmers Johnson review!

“I didn’t close the quotes"… “I didn’t provide sources for the quotes”.....  “I never claimed the words of David Sirota were my own”

Did you also by chance miss the “I” in your statement of… “Basically, I would define"Liberals by their preference...”

You’re like the 4 year old kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar yet blamed the dog for doing it for some odd reason.  Is that another trait of “Progressives” that I missed.  Boy I hope you don’t have any involvment in mentoring kids if that is how you deal with lies and get caught at it.

Ken, You’re right.  if you went around asking how many true “Conservatives” support GWB and Republican party over the past 7 years you would be hard pressed to find alot of takers.  That’s what’s been helping the Democratic party with the most recent elections.

But somehow life will come full circle because it always does.  Democrats will shoot themselves in the foot and tax and spend liberalism (I mean Progressive policy) will kill the Democratic party once again.  They are their own worst enemy.

Screwedby,

“I and “many others” don’t consider either Ron Paul or Ralph Nader viable.”

The ‘problem’ is, the 2 parties have constructed laws that make it almost ‘impossible’ for ANY third party to win!!  The people of this country have been ‘pursuaded’, that ‘only’ the 2 parties have ‘viable’ candidates, by Labor Leaders, Religious Leaders and the Parties themselves!!

If your so-called ‘Progressives’ have all the answers, how come THEY haven’t been able to ‘persuade’ people to change the system?  After all, you say it goes way back to people like Teddy Roosevelt!!

The ‘biggest’ problem, is the way government runs in the first place, no matter who gets ‘elected’, they are soon told, “Toe the line, or you get nothing done”, so it becomes the old “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours”, politics and, if you don’t ‘Play Ball’, you won’t be around too long!!  Look at Bernie Sanders (Independent), you can’t tell him from your standard LIBERAL!!  He had to select a party to follow, so he chose the Liberals!!  Ron Paul had to become a Republican to get elected to office!!  And, Ralph Nader, will die of old age before he ever becomes ‘viable’!!

ddrb,

I didn’t ask if the government agencies were effective or not, but, there are agencies to cover the things you mentioned!!  Besides, even the inaction and failures you talk about, is govenrment affecting your life, negatively!!  The government has become a giant behemoth, that plods along destroying everything in it’s path!!  Government should SOLVE problems, not create a bunch more, but, the more problems there are, the ‘bigger’ government gets and the more secure their jobs become!!

RDS: A giant behemoth that plods along everything in its path,with its inactions and failures ,negatively affecting peoples lives,creating new problems, yet, should be creating solutions-RDS,are you SURE you’re not talking about WalMart? In that case,I’m ALL for making it WAY smaller(RICO),just as you advocate the government should be.BTW,the bigger WalMart gets,far LESS job security is created.

Uh, the rights of workers to unionize here in the U.S.? The Department of Labor has NOT regulated the rights of workers-indeed by INACTION has been a defacto labor busting tool for the past 8 years.

RDS - I guess our pal * has never heard of the National Labor Relations Board…

On balance, the evidence is more consistent with the claims of Wal-Mart’s critics, although questions remain. In the retail sector, the representative Wal-Mart presence (about eight years) reduces employment by two to four percent. There is some evidence that payrolls per worker also decline, by about 3.5 percent, but this conclusion is less robust. Either way, though, retail earnings fall.”

Neumark’s research confirms widespread anecdotal evidence that Wal-Mart’s low-wage, meager benefits model drives down wages for workers EVERYWHERE.

Dr. Neumark’s paper, “The Effects of Wal-Mart on Local Labor Markets.”

Friday, November 04, 2005,WalMart Watch

Re: National Labor Relations Act:Wednesday, November 12, 2003

By Matt Hayes
Wal-Mart made history last Friday, though probably not the kind of history it wants to be making.

Eight people employed to clean Wal-Mart stores sued Wal-Mart Corporation, along with nine other named defendants, in Federal District Court in New Jersey under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization (RICO) Act (search).

What’s historic about the lawsuit is the basis of the complaint. Under certain circumstances private individuals, rather than the U.S. government, can commence a civil action against organizations engaged in ongoing criminal activity that causes them damage. In their complaint, the eight illegal immigrants who sued Wal-Mart (search) asserted that it was their employment relationship with Wal-Mart or its cleaning contractors—a relationship that is consensual—that constituted the ongoing criminal activity.An individual’s use of the RICO statute against companies that hire illegal aliens is authorized by the 1996 immigration reforms. 

To fans of “The Godfather,” this would be like Frank Pentangeli using RICO to sue Michael Corleone. And that is an apt comparison, because RICO was designed to combat organized crime and its influence on labor. Now Wal-Mart, an icon of American business, finds itself the target of a RICO action.

The federal lawsuit has other features that may surprise Americans. Employment of illegal aliens is prohibited under the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 , so each plaintiff has conceded in the complaint that he is without legal immigration status and is removable from the U.S. Nonetheless, each plaintiff asserts a right to pay, owed for work performed, that approximates that which a person with legal immigration status would have received for the same work, to include back pay and overtime.

Such claims are authorized under the National Labor Relations Act , which governs back pay claims for all people in the U.S. without regard to their immigration status. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 does nothing to restrict an illegal alien’s right to advance a back pay claim, in recognition of the strong American belief that all people should be paid for work they have done.

The New Jersey plaintiffs’ complaint reads like a novel. Some plaintiffs contend that companies created specifically to employ illegal immigrants and skirt employment laws hired them. They were generally paid $350.00 in cash for a seven-day workweek. Their employers withheld no payroll taxes, and as a result, they contend, paid nothing in the way of social security. Wal-Mart, they allege, was aware of these arrangements and actively conspired with plaintiffs’ employers. 

To this writer’s knowledge, this case is the first in which plaintiffs cite their own employment relationship with defendants, which is a relationship that required the plaintiffs’ own ongoing participation, as the basis of a RICO claim.

There are many other potential plaintiffs that don’t labor under that disability, though. Citizens, green card holders, and U.S. companies that have been deprived of employment or business opportunities because of some employers’ practice of hiring illegal aliens have succeeded in civil RICO claims in the past.

“While the plaintiffs in the New Jersey case may see the RICO portions of their case against Wal-Mart dismissed, American businesses and citizens, and lawful permanent residents should not have the same problem,” says Craig Nelsen of Friends of Immigration Law Enforcement.

It’s Almost Scary!

Sometimes RDS...you say things that make you potential “Progressive.”

So...you’re not really against big government per se...you’re against a government that is ineffective!  I can dig it!

You said, “Government should SOLVE problems...” That sounds like a Progressive position to me.

I bet you’re not really against taxes either...I bet you’d like to see our tax money spent more efficiently.  We don’t need to increase taxes and we don’t need to decrease taxes. We need to either establish a flat tax and close loopholes for deductions, or else we need to raise taxes for those in the upper income bracket and lower them for those making less than $100,000 per year.

Just this evening on ABC News there was a report about the rising cost of gasoline.  The report stated that there are 1,000’s of cars being added to the road every day in China.  At the same time, gasoline taxes are being raised, while production may have peaked.  The bottom line:  $4.00 per gallon gas may very soon seem like a bargain!

One particular quote from this report stood out:

“There are ways to organize our lives that will not diminish the quality of our lives.”

Shipping products around the globe may no longer be feasible or sustainable.

$4.00 per gallon gas may very soon seem like a bargain!

The price of gasoline in Kuwait is 35¢ a liter.

“They had a sign up in our Layaway Dept. - Now Hiring: TLE Service Techs. No Exp. Required” ~ Hawkeye

Screwedby,

“So...you’re not really against big government per se...you’re against a government that is ineffective!  I can dig it!”

An effective government, would end up being a smaller government!!

“I bet you’re not really against taxes either...I bet you’d like to see our tax money spent more efficiently.  We don’t need to increase taxes and we don’t need to decrease taxes.”

Right, taxes are necessary!!  But, if taxes were used more efficently, we wouldn’t need to pay as much, so taxes could be decreased!!

“We need to either establish a flat tax and close loopholes for deductions”

I could go for that, though I prefer a consumption tax and elimination of the IRS!!

“or else we need to raise taxes for those in the upper income bracket and lower them for those making less than $100,000 per year.”

This is where we disagree, it has been proven that lowering the tax rates on upper income levels, actually INCREASES tax revenues, so why would we want to raise them?  And, as for people making less than $100,000.00 a year, they already pay almost next to nothing in income taxes, after deductions!!

““There are ways to organize our lives that will not diminish the quality of our lives.””

I have been saying this for quite awhile now and have been called a Whacko, how come, when you say it, it is ‘good advice’?

“The bottom line:  $4.00 per gallon gas may very soon seem like a bargain!”

Here’s one for you:  Back in the 1980’s, it was proposed to go to LP gas for autos (LP gas is much cheaper and cleaner), a company my brother worked for, bought out a Canadian company that made tanks for LP gas, but, it never came to be and the company he worked for, went bankrupt!!  Now, LP is being suggested again, wonder how far it will go this time?  Also, back then people were told to go to Diesel cars too, now Diesel is higher than gas!!

Almost, RDS!

“so taxes could be decreased!!”

WRONG!  How are we ever going to implement the healthcare reform, education reform, and spur job creation that almost everyone agrees we need, if we decrease taxes?  I like to think of it as deploying existing tax revenues in better and more efficient ways.

“a consumption tax”

Wouldn’t this fly in the face of Wal-Mart’s “buy more/pay less business model?  I’d bring up the 1 gallon jars of pickles again, but that’s been beat to death!

“as for people making less than $100,000.00 a year, they already pay almost next to nothing in income taxes...”

<i>“There are ways to organize our lives that will not diminish the quality of our lives.”

First of all, I’m not the one who said it!  We don’t want to get “mary” going off on a rant again.  Secondly, I find it hard to believe you or any other die-hard Wal-Mart shopper would ever say that, because the word quality is irrelevant to you!

“WRONG!  How are we ever going to implement the healthcare reform, education reform, and spur job creation that almost everyone agrees we need, if we decrease taxes?  I like to think of it as deploying existing tax revenues in better and more efficient ways. “

Throwing more money at the health care system and the education system is not going to solve the problem, and decreasing taxes would spur job creation since it would make it cheaper to produce goods in the US.  Putting larger tariffs on countries with low working standards, and decreasing taxes on companies manufacturing in the US would equal the playing field and bring manufacturing jobs back to this country.  The biggest problem with the education system is that parents are not involved at all.  If parents would actually follow up with their kids and make sure they are doing their homework and learning then they might actually learn something in school.  No amount of money is going to fix that problem.  Unless you plan on bribing the parents to get involved in their children’s lives, but I’m not sure that that is the best solution to the problem. 

Ken, if you’ll remember the economy was entering a recession at the end of your liberal’s turn in the white house so Bush didn’t exactly inherit the booming economy that you revisionists like to think. 

Also why are all you liberal hippies upset about high gas prices?  You should be glad that they are high, if you really believe the environmental crap that you spew out, because the higher they go the more economical alternative fuels become.

Screwedby,

“How are we ever going to implement the healthcare reform, education reform, and spur job creation that almost everyone agrees we need, if we decrease taxes?”

With an efficent government and efficent spending habits, about half of government employees could be eliminated and there would be plenty of money to do the things you mentioned with even less money!!

“Wouldn’t this fly in the face of Wal-Mart’s “buy more/pay less business model?”

No, first, an employee would get ALL of their earnings every paycheck, minus Social Security and Medicare!!  Then, as you pay tax only on money spent, it is kind of like the “pay as you go” system you recommended earlier!!  That would fit in quite well with the ‘low price’ (low tax) Wal-Mart senerio!!

“First of all, I’m not the one who said it!”

You may not have said it, but, you posted it!!  Are you now saying that you don’t agree with what you posted?

“because the word quality is irrelevant to you”

There is a big difference between ‘quality of life’ and your vision of a quality product!!  If the product fits my needs, than it is ALL the quality I need!!  Why should I buy crystal stemware, when glass stemware is good enough for my needs?  High quality crystal stemware would not increase my ‘quality of life’ one bit, but, would actually decrease it, because I would have less money to spend on necessities!!

“You may not have said it, but, you posted it!!”

It’s not the first time Screwded posted something that someone else said.... only this he claims they didn’t originate from him.

jane walmart dont destroy anything the other places destroy themselves by their arrogant selfish refusal to lower their prices to be more competetive with wm?jane why is walmart not allowed to sell stuff at low prices but your favorite stores are and you have no problem with them doing it?and you never raise the same argument about your favorite stores low prices destroying everything?explain that jane.

Dave...Until Now I’ve Ignored You!

Let me just sum it up by saying you’re as full of CRAP as RDS, bbrd, “mary,” and the rest of the Wal-Mart worhipers.

“Throwing more money at the health care system and the education system is not going to solve the problem...” ~Dave

And I suppose you have the solution to both health care and education in this country, Dave?

No… “throwing money” alone at these two massive problems isn’t going to work, but if anyone thinks there’s a cheap way to do it, he or she is really out of touch!  The true “cost” of fixing these problems doesn’t manifest itself until we are faced with fixing other problems like “a savings and loan bailout” or a “subprime mortage crisis.” One of your predecessors (now depearted from this blog) thought he had all the answers for fixing healthcare too!  He thought it was as simple as saying, “demand that health insurance companies,” or “demand that doctors”....yadda, yadda, yadda.  Well, my question was then and still is now--- who’s going to do all of this “demanding?” Certainly NOT our government, because we all know according to RDS, government is already too large and needs to be cut down in size.

You’re also an idiot if you believe that uninvolved parents is “The biggest problem with the education system...”

While parental involvement is a problem, I wouldn’t say it’s “the biggest.” Why don’t you talk your “Commander in Chief’s” great unfunded mandate “No Child Left Behind?” How about poverty?  Jobs?  Wouldn’t it be great if we could build more technical training and job centers that are partnered with grade shools and high schools across this country.  Maybe some of these “uninvolved parents” you speak of Dave could use a little more education and training themselves… maybe we could start a “two-for-one policy” where parents go to school with their children.  Do you think that would take any money, Dave?  Do you think this has anything to do with “education”, Dave?

“To the ‘C’ students, I say to you: you, too, can be president of the United States.”
~ George W. Bush
Former “C” student

(From a commencement speech at Yale): “If you’re like me you won’t remember everything you did here.”
~ George W. Bush
Former frat party boy

“Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children.”
~ George W. Bush
As a child he was Left Behind

“Rarely is the question asked, “Is our children learning?”
~ George W. Bush
Education advocate

Screwedby,

“Well, my question was then and still is now--- who’s going to do all of this “demanding?””

Let’s see, isn’t their something that says, We the People”?  If we want the education system to change, “We the People” have to do it, by ‘demanding’ change!!

I recently talked to some high school graduates, while talking to them, I asked if they were taught ‘How to budget their money’ or ‘How to save for their future (IRA’s and 401K’s) or most of the other things they need to know to cope with living outside of their parents households, the resounding answer was “NO”!!  They were taught a lot of other things that they probably will never use again in their lives, but, not all the things they need to survive in society!!

What is it about ‘more money’ that makes you think that children will get a ‘better’ education, when ‘interest in learning’, by students and parents doesn’t change?  That can only be done by PEOPLE taking an interest, not government!!

“You’re also an idiot if you believe that uninvolved parents is “The biggest problem with the education system...” “

How do you explain how some children learn and thrive in the same schools as other that are dropping out and can’t make it?  Their schooling is the same, funding is the same, teachers are the same.  The only difference is their family and their desire to learn.  People in America have just become lazy from all the wellfare and expect everything to be given to them instead of actually working to learn and do well in school.  Just about every time you hear someone interviewed that was able to get out of bad areas, they say that the reason they were able to get out was that their mom or grandma or someone prevalent in their life was on their butt and made them go to school and do their work, and that they had stressed the importance of education.  You can sink as much money as you want into the education system, but if kids and their parents don’t see the importance of learning that money is going to be wasted. 

As far as the health care system, I never said that I had the answers for it, I just said that the government getting involved in it and spending a bunch of money on it wasn’t going to help the situation, and since it is looking like all the presidential candidates are leaning towards that approach most likely the government is going to prove me right in the next four years.

Dave: Your soliliquoy about education and its importance would be well directed to the voters in West Virginia and Kentucky. Both states have a labor force that is highly uneducated and unmotivated,lowest median incomes in U.S. and have little motivation to elelvate their own status. Did I mention these states are less than 10% minority population ?Ironincally, the Secretaqry of Labor,Elaine Cho’s husband Mitch McConnell is a senator from Kentucky. Doesn’t appear that they have done much to help his home state!

Dave,

“Both states have a labor force that is highly uneducated and unmotivated,lowest median incomes in U.S. and have little motivation to elelvate their own status.” ~ ddrb

Seems that ddrb, doesn’t even see, that she made your point for you!!  I’ve known many people who don’t think education is important, and wonder why they can’t make a ‘decent’ wage!!  Even here on this site, we have seen many people who think people should get higher pay, no matter their education or skill levels!!  With that attitude, people are being told, “Who needs an education, why bother, when a union can get you high wages and benefits without it”!!

Both states have a labor force that is highly uneducated and unmotivated,lowest median incomes in U.S. and have little motivation to elelvate their own status.~ *s take on West Virginia and Kentucky

Ahem - while what she says about West Virginia may or may not be correct, she’s a little off-base about Kentucky.

Kentucky is much larger than, say, Massachusetts—the region * is speaking-of is in the Appalachians, the area that borders West Virginia.  Much of the rest of the state isn’t quite like that.

In fact, Louisville, the hometown of Sen. McConnell, is one of the largest cities in the U.S.

Ironincally, the Secretaqry of Labor,Elaine Cho’s husband Mitch McConnell is a senator from Kentucky. Doesn’t appear that they have done much to help his home state!

Here’s one for you, * , since you enjoy naming names…

What about Sens. Robert Byrd and Jay Rockefeller of West Virgnia??  Surely, those two carry more than enough political and financial clout to make “The Mountain State” a far better place than it is, but we are yet to see anything happen, there…

NOTE: Sen. Byrd is the longest-serving of all Senate members, while Sen. Rockefeller’s pedigree is from one of America’s wealthiest familes.

bbrd: I missed this thread,otherwise I would have responded accordingly. I have pondered the implacability,myself. It is well documented as to Senator Byrd’s dubious racial affiliations of the past,and the Rockefeller alleged attachments to futuristic unitary world government, What is a common thread,however,is the preponderance of poverty,in such abundant wealth availabily and access. Perhaps you can pontificate?I truly am flummoxed!

I was only making a simple point—no need to bombard us with $6.95 words…

I could care less about the WV Senators’ past views—all I was saying, is that these two public servants both hold a tremendous amount of power that has went unused.

After all, isn’t that what your buddies say about the Sam Walton family on a daily basis?

bbrd: I don’t see anyone ,on either side of the multi political spectrums, having the ecumenical awareness to begin this dialog in this forum,except SDV, and he has been unfairly maligned on repeated occassions.

(shaking head)

...he (SDV) has been unfairly maligned on repeated occassions.

We’re talking about the same SVD??  The one who has called no less than eight people, here “embicle”???

Wait, that’s right—you didn’t grace us with your presence, yet, so it doesn’t count…