Presidential Candidates Take On Wal-Mart

““My problem with Wal-Mart is that I don’t see any indication that they care about the fate of middle-class people,” Mr. Biden said, standing on the sweltering rooftop of the State Historical Society building here. “They talk about paying them $10 an hour. That’s true. How can you live a middle-class life on that?””

First it was paying employees a ‘Living Wage”, now, it’s gotten up to paying employees enough to be considered “Middle Class”, what’s next, paying employees enough to live like ‘rich’ people.  I think the Dems. have grabbed onto an issue that will be a problem for them come election time.  CNBC interviewed some people on the street, about this and the comments were, “What business is it of the government, how Wal-Mart runs it’s business, as long as they are paying over minimum wage?” and, “I need to keep my costs down, in the end, you have to look out for number one”.  As it has been pointed out before, the shoppers vote with their dollars, as to whether they approve with the way Wal-Mart runs and if the Dems. keep up the campaign against Wal-Mart, they just might find themselves out in the cold come election time.  Remember, the ‘poor’ are their constituents and it is mainly the ‘poor’, that shop at Wal-Mart and enjoy the ‘low prices’.

Remember, the unions may have a case to promote, if Wal-Mart paid LESS and had LESS benefits than other retailers, but in most cases, the opposite is true, in those cases, Wal-Mart already pays MORE and gives BETTER benefits.  Bashing the biggest, is a bad strategy, it should either be ALL or NONE, that is the essence of Democracy.

The far left liberal elitist politicians think they have a winning platform going against wal-mart for the next election, but in reality they are in fantasy world and it will come back to bite them in the rear end. Look how many dems have come out and slammed wal-mart, and then had to come up with lame excuses why they took money from walmart, was on their board of trustees, or had their campaigns shop for election supplies at the nearest walmart. The only reason they are on this topic is to appease the unions, so that the unions keep money flowing into their campaigns. They don’t give a crap about the lower and middle class people, no matter what they say. Don’t get me wrong, the republicians are just as bad. There are no saints amongst the politicians, they are just in it for the money....

F.Y.I. - Senator Hillary Clinton was given a $5,000 donation from Wal-Mart for campaign funds, in which she returned to them.

Power,
yes, but she also served on the board of trustees. She has the nerve to say it was better back when she was on the board and sam was still alive, but truthfully, our benefits are better currently then back then. In the 8 years I have worked for wal-mart, by benefits have improved each year, other then the cost of health insurance. You can’t blame wal-mart for the price of HMO’s and health insurance either, it’s all of these lawyers filing frivilous lawsuits against hospitals,doctors, and drug companies that have helped jump the cost of health insurance. Also, the number of unhealthy overweight people,that has been constantly rising over the last decade has helped push insurance up also.

By the way, if these democrats were so sure about their message, why don’t they take their bus tour down in to the states affected by the hurricanes of last year. I think they fear going to far south because they know this is a dead issue down south and it’s safer to stay up north with their other elitist liberals. But what do I care, the more they try to make Wal-mart evil, the more ammunition the conservatives will have to attack back with. I never thought I would have anything to say good about Al Gore, but I have to give him a big thumbs up on finally seeing the light and the good walmart does for the country. But now, the liberals will declare him a traitor, like they did to the enviromentalist and civil rights leaders who have come out in favor of wal-mart. If they keep turning on their own people, their party will be so divided, they will never gain control of the nation again.

Once banned - I would hope that benefits have improved over the last 14 years since Sam Walton has passed. No, frivilous lawsuits against doctors/hospitals “don’t” help the cost of health insurance, and neither does overweight people. But Wal-Mart “does” have the capability, (bank roll), to better fund their current health care program. The taxpayers shouldn’t have to pick up the slack where Wal-Mart leaves off.

Liberal democrats sticking their finger in the wind and figuring they can make political hay out of bashing Wal-Mart, screw the truth, score political points!........Shocker.....

“Frivilous” law suites are a such a joke.Think about it, most lawyers take these cases on a contingancy basis, and they are responsible for the cost of bringing a case like this to trial. No lawyer in his right mind would bring suit that is giong to cost him in the area of $250,000 out of his pocket if the case has no merrit. Then the judge has to find cause before he will allow that suit to go forward. Judges are aware of the political backlash of being associated with “frivilous” law suits and they are elected officials in almost every instance. So what would be thier political motavation to let them go to court and recieve such bad review from the right.

The fact is that this is catch fraise was started by the right wing and the insurance companys. California has a cap As well as many other states, yet thier insurance prices have risen by leapes and bounds. The only winners are the insurance companys, polititions and the Doctors that cause this type of injury over and over (and we as citicens never know who they are, because they are protected).

That poor family earning $20,000 a year and trying to raise a child that was brain damaged by some Doctors neglagence. The cap of $250,000 is so ridicusly low, I mean you trying to raise child that requires around the clock attantion and countless medications on that amount. It’s crazy.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

“Frivilous” lawsuits.....

Now how much was that award for the McDonalds coffee suit 10 years ago? 

Ironhead if you think that lawyers only bring on suits that are on “merit” you are living in a dream world.  In fact I would wager to say that most of these type of suits never make it to a courtroom and are settled in advance because it’s usually cheaper than fighting.... that’s what trial lawyers are counting on.  It’s their bread and butter for the extortion racket they run.

Now if you change the “system” so that you make EVERYONE resonsible, including the plantiff’s and their contingency lawyers by saying “if you loose you pay all court costs, legal costs of the defendents, and punitive damages for WASTING OTHER PEOPLE’S TIME” then let’s see how many of these cases will even see the light of day.

Our healthcare system is the best in the world medically but horrible in terms of financing.  It’s not just the lawyers, doctors and drug companies but the individual users the most.  Until you change the system so that the users PAY for their services instead of just sticking the bill to their insurance companies the costs will continue to skyrocket.  Our system needs to be changed to a consumer oriented purchasing system. Fix the costs and you will fix the problem of insurance coverage for those who cannot afford it.

-Richard K

Richard

Just anouther Right Winged tool to keep the poor from being able to recieve justice in the courts. I mean how would a poor person have the ability to do this? So then the only people that would have access to the courts are the wealthy. While your at it why not instatute a polling tax, and make sure that the poor are not given any rights at all. That to is a bill that the right wing has tryed to introduce.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Insurance costs are high because insurance companies make them high, the 10 year old McDonald suit was not a malpractice lawsuit against doctors, it was a lawsuit against McDonalds.  Congratulations, Rich you made a successful argument as to how frivolous lawsuits affect the price of my Big Mac.  Anyway, this isn’t about lawsuits or how much it costs to buy some French Fries from McDonald’s, this is about how Wal-Mart consistently screws those that it Orwellianly refers to as “associates.” As the largest retail chain world wide Wal-Mart does have a responsibility to provide its employees with reasonable healthcare, it does not do this.  Wal-Mart has a responsibility to pay its employees enough money to have a comfortable living, it does not do this.  Merely paying over minimum wage does not make a company charitable, or socially responsible, any more than holding a gun to someone’s head and not pulling the trigger makes you a life-saver.  If Wal-Mart treats its “associates” so well then what does it have to fear from unionizing?

Ironhead,

If justice was as simple as taking somone to court in order to correct an inadequacy then great, but rewarding someone millions of dollars (split 1/3 to the lawyer) for many times the lack of personal responsibility, how does that bring justice?  And where did I say the poor would never be able to receive justice?  All I said was make the justice system more just. 

Let me present this scenerio… If your neighbor walked on to your yard and tripped over a tree branch breaking a leg, then sued you for $1000 in medical expenses and 20 million dollars in punitive damages for pain and suffering because you should have put up a sign saying “watch out for the tree branches”, now you in turn have to spend $10,000 to hire a lawyer to defend you.  If this goes to court and you win (like you should because of your neighbor’s lack of personsiblity not yours) you are out the $10,000 for the defense.  Your accuser though has lost nothing.  Now if that neighbor and his/her lawyer was obligated to reimburse you the $10,000 and possibly compensation for you time would they not think twice about bringing this “frivilious” suit?

-Richard K

Marlowe

“insurance costs are hight because insurance companies make them high”. 

Who are you kidding?  Have you ever heard of an actuarial tables?  Rates are based on risk not a pure “arbitrary” number posed by insurance companies.  Why do you think health insurance rates are rising at the rate they are?  Do you think medical costs are stagnent and insurance companies are pocketing the increases every year?  The McDonald’s lawsuit is a pure and simple example of a frivilous suit like many suits filed in the medical industry which in turn helps make up the costs that you and I incur every day with health care.

Let me also set some facts straight for you and all of the Walmart haters because you keep ignoring what is staring you in the face.

1.  Walmart has a responsiblity to pay it’s employees an agreed upon compensation.

2.  Walmart, nor any other employer, has a responsiblity to provide for or pay for benefits.  They are just that, benefits.  And if you as the employee don’t like those terms or can find a better level of compensation and benefits by all means do what is best for you, hence personal responsiblity.

3.  Paying an agreed upon compensation whether it be $5.15/hr or $100,000/hr is neither “charitable” or “socially responsible”.  It is pure and simple an agreed upon wage.

While your at it ask Ford, GM and Chrysler and most of the major airlines how well that “union” thing is working for them and their employees.  Unions CAN be an equalizer but they can also destroy as in these cases.

-Richard K

Richard

Let me throw a scenerio at you then. A police officer believes that you are the perpatrator of a crime. You are taken to jail and are later released on $100,000 bail. Of
which you must pay a bondsman $10,000. You must hire a lawyer and fight this case for the next year. Racking up a $1,000,000 legal defense. At the end of a lengthy trial you are found to be not guilty.... By your reasoning you would be intitled to full compansation from your arresting officer.

Richard, what planet are you living on?

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Just another example of how ....the party leadership has lost thier way by leaning to hard to the left. The have forgotten who “got them to the dance”—and it is no wonder they lost the White House and Congress. Even with the major screw ups of the Bush Admin and the Rep Congress—they can’t find thier way to get “on message” and focus on what really matters. Interesting that the Dem Party key leadership and White House hopefuls are busy touring the country playing “lap dog” to the far left acadimics that have never held a real job and the unions that have failed to get them elected over the last 8-12 years. It is hard to understand why they are reading from the WMWatch fact sheet in support WMWatch when over 100 million plus shoppers in the US visit Walmart ever week saving over $2,000 per year for thier families. Much less the 1000s of middle and lower income Americans that line up each week to be considered for employment at a new Walmart Store. How can they look in the face of the under employed or unemployed and tell them—no job is better than a job with over twice the min wage, benefits and a possible career. Looking at the mid terms results—it appears they would not win if the Rep party all took a leave of absence for the next 2 years. Oh, yes… you can be a Democrat (like me)and not support the direction union labor leaders have taken America and union labor for a ride. Apparently many in the workforce agree as we see the declining union numbers. Wake up Walmart, bull.. Wake up Dem Party.

Ironhead,

Absolutely!!!!!  If the arresting officer or the police violate your personal rights and arrest you on bogus charges or flimsy evidence and you help show that they were wrong in the first place and never should have made the arrest then absolutely you should be able to recoup your costs and for your time.  Yes it should be that simple.

The planet I live on is the one where the court system is that screwed up.  Where do you live?

-Richard K

btw, Ironhead.  How do you respond to my scenerio?  Now it’s your turn.

-Richard K

Richard

The judge may be asked at the end of a trial to give awards to the defendant and he may, at that time. The defendant may file a counter suit. Or the defendant may take the plaintiff back to court and sue for damages. But, what you are asking is for the judgement’s to be awarded automaticly. Can you imagine what would happen to our legal system if defendants recieved automatic monitary judgements against law enforcement. No cop in his right mind would ever make an arrest. And what would happen to our justice system?

By automaticly making plaintiffs responsible for the defendants leagle bills , That would create a system in which lawyers would only take the cases that they were paid in advance. Thus the poor would be left with no legal recourse. Lets face it, no one can ever be sure of a trials out come. So it would be a huge gamble for a lawyer to take on the financial responsibility of both sides, it’s a big enough gamble as it is now. It’s hard enough for a poor person to get justice. The law that you propose would make it all but impossible.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Ironhead, people like him don’t care about the poor, they are Social Darwinists.  They believe that anyone who is poor deserves to be so and that everything in the system is fair and just and it’s just a simple matter of making the correct choices.  That’s it!  It really is THAT simple!  Now, we all know that this is a load of B.S. (including them), but that shatters the comfortable, self-serving illusion that they live in, so rationalization is used to cover it up.  Obviously I believe that people should make intelligent and wise choices and decisions in life and take personal responsibility, but it is way more complicated than this in reality, and everyone does not have an equal shot, therefore, this argument is a logical fallacy.

Generic Wal-Mart Wageslave,

“They believe that anyone who is poor deserves to be so”

No we don’t, and in fact, we want the ‘poor’ to succeed in life, but not by handouts, but by earning their way.  It is the ‘poor’ for the most part, that believe they somehow deserve poverty and do things that tend to keep them there.

“and that everything in the system is fair and just and it’s just a simple matter of making the correct choices.  That’s it!  It really is THAT simple!”

You are right, it really is that simple!  Make the right choices and you can get ahead in life.  But, when you start making bad choices and a host of excuses, it then becomes complicated. 

“Obviously I believe that people should make intelligent and wise choices and decisions in life and take personal responsibility, but it is way more complicated than this in reality, and everyone does not have an equal shot, therefore, this argument is a logical fallacy.”

Can you tell us how everyone does not have an equal shot, if they make intelligent and wise choices and decisions in life and take personal responsibility?

Bob - Yes, there are people out there that do make bad choices in life, make excuses, and think they deserve hand-me-outs. But, you can’t honestly say, that all people have an equal shot. Look at the kid born with the silver spoon in his mouth, versus, the kid growing up in the ghettos/slums. Sure, your going to have your success stories coming out of the ghettos, but more times than not, this isn’t the case. Chances are, the kid with the silver spoon will have parents that encourage their child to do good in school, stay out of trouble, and will supply the funds for their college, dorm housing, first car, etc. More times than not, these things are not encouraged/available to the lower class, and sometimes even the middle class. So things are not always “fair” to the underpriviledged, especially to the kids that grow up and ultimately end up working for places like Wal-Mart. Not all people at Wal-Mart have made bad choices in their life.

I love to read all the comments on Walmart issues especially since I work for Walmart.  The one thing I want to make clear is there has been alot of talk on the news about Walmart increasing their starting pay but what they are not telling you is that recently walmart put in place a cap on wages.  I know other companies do this but other companies also offer a cost of living increase.  This new wage cap affects mostly long term associates.  We use to get a little raise every year with our evaluation.  This encouraged us to do well because we could get a above standard evaluation and the increase would be more.  Walmart says they are implementing this cap to encourage us to move up but once you are a department manager the next step up would be Assistant Manager but I understand they have a cap also and I know of two department managers that have applied for Assistant manager positions and have been passed over nine times.  Alot of my fellow long term associates feel that the company is trying to get rid of long term associates.  I guess loyalty and pride doesnt mean much anymore.  All you have to do is look back at the memo Ms Chambers wrote and it tells you right there that this is just another way of urging long term associates to leave the company.  As far as politicians go, unless Im wrong I believe the Waltons had a party for the republicans before the last election.

Whoever thinks that $10 an hour equates to living a middle class lifestyle has obveously never lived on $10 an hour.  Let’s not forget that this is BEFORE taxes.  Furthermore, should the employee be one of the chosen few to be recieving health care from Wal-Mart, there are considerable costs associated with this as well. This leaves for very sparce living.

I invite anyone in Washington or those of you out there with jobs paying corporate wages to take a few years and live on $10 an hour (or less as many recieve 6-8 an hour).  Then you can talk about what middle class wages are.

Power To The People,

What you said is all true, but the kid with the ‘silver spoon’ has nothing to do with the intelligence, and choices made by the ones without the ‘silver spoon’.  All of the things you stated show that people who make bad choices, are not encouraged to do better, usually do not get ahead, but does not go to the heart of my question, “Can you tell us how everyone does not have an equal shot, if they make intelligent and wise choices and decisions in life and take personal responsibility?”.  People who do these things, have just as much chance of getting ahead as anyone else.  It is the problems you pointed out that cause people to fall behind or stay where they are at.

Bob

Wake up and smell the bull shit that you spew. “People who do these things, have just as much chance of getting ahead as anyone else”. Someone needs to grag ahold of you and shake you till your teeth rattle. Perhapes that would wake you from this dream world(or coma) that you live in.

What you are saying is that we are all born on an equal playing field, and that some are too stupid to get the wealth that everyone has equal access to. This is a load of crap.

You fail to mention that the richest people have every advantage in thier favor. Inheirentance, Education, and probably the most important, Business Contacts. The Business contacts are a kind of birth right to the wealthy because rich people hang out with rich people, and you poor bastards better not try to crash thier Bar-B-Q least you find yourself arrested for trespassing.

The truth is the country clublife style is “Off limits” to the working class with very few exceptions( dish washers cooks, wait staff.....). The eletists in this country try to dangle a carrot to us but when you reach for it you find yourself slapped away from the table. “I mean, Oliver, how dare you ask for more grewell”.

The right wing uses this whole “I did it, so anyone can” Speach and pat each other an the back and tell each other how great and wise they are. To have pulled themselves up by thier Nannys aprin strings, and to have gone forth in the world on thier own with nothing but $10,000,000, a degree from Harvard, and more contacts to help them than you can shake a stick at. Wow, how they must have suffered!

WAKE UP, BOB!!!!!!!!!

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Bob

You make claim that “you were at one time in a union” and that you “were at on etime a union orginizer”. If this is so, what union did you belong to and which one did you orginize for. After all I have put all my cards on the table. You should not be afraid to put yours out there. In other words Bob, I double dog dare ya!!!

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER
LOCAL 710 MONROE LA.

Bob - The fact that everyone may or may not have the same equal shot in life isn’t exactly the point here. Even if a person “does” make a bad decision here or there, I’m sure they have more than paid for their mistakes via, jail time, court fines, probation, or whatever punishment fit the bad decision.  Everyone makes mistakes in life, it’s only human to error. But this does not the only excuse that can be thrown out there to justify why people work at places like Wal-Mart. If the “acceptable” jobs are not out there, then these same people have little chance of getting out of the same hole their in. Like I’ve said before, poverty level jobs raise the poverty level, in which in return, raises the crime rate. As a community, people can’t just keep saying, “oh well, all these people deserve to be where their at, because they made a bad decision”. Not all people at Wal-Mart have made bad decisions in life, and for the ones that have made bad decisions, there needs to be the resources (jobs) out there to help pull these people up. Poverty does not do this.  As opposed to popular belief, poverty is not always a choice.

IRONHEAD,

“What you are saying is that we are all born on an equal playing field, and that some are too stupid to get the wealth that everyone has equal access to. This is a load of crap.

You fail to mention that the richest people have every advantage in thier favor. Inheirentance, Education, and probably the most important, Business Contacts. The Business contacts are a kind of birth right to the wealthy because rich people hang out with rich people, and you poor bastards better not try to crash thier Bar-B-Q least you find yourself arrested for trespassing.”

I was hoping that this would be your answer, because that is exactly what ‘poor’ people think.  Today, I watched Tiger Woods win the PGA championship, did he come from a rich family?  And, guess what, he’s even ‘black’.  He now has millions, because his dad taught him that if he tried hard enough, he could succeed.  I hear it all the time, ‘poor’ people CAN"T get ahead, but we see former ‘poor’ people become Judges, Movie stars, Athletes, CEO’s, Congress persons and many other high positions.  If you drop out of school or land a job at McDonalds or Wal-Mart, and take it as a career, you are doing exactly what most ‘poor’ people do.  Luckily for you, you had the forsight to bypass that mentality and get a good job that pays better.  Too bad that most ‘poor’ people don’t do whaat you did, then they could get ahead too.

I know, you’re going to say that the union created that good paying job for you, right?  Well, they didn’t create, your boss did and it would pay well, whether or not there was a union, because it is skilled labor, a high school student couldn’t just walk in and learn it in a day.

I worked for the Teamsters union and organized for the UAW.  I have said this before, remember when I said I didn’t get my pension from the Teamsters?

Power To The People,

“Not all people at Wal-Mart have made bad decisions in life, and for the ones that have made bad decisions, there needs to be the resources (jobs) out there to help pull these people up. Poverty does not do this.  As opposed to popular belief, poverty is not always a choice.”

Making ‘bad’ decisions is human, but, it is learning from those decisions and not making them again that is the deciding factor as to whether you get ahead in life.  To continue to keep doing the same things over and over again, is why people stay in poverty.  You said there should be jobs out there, well, there are, they just might not be where you are at.  So, a good decision, if there are no good paying jobs, would be to go to where the good jobs are.  To stay in a place without good jobs, is another ‘bad’ decision.  Popular belief is correct, living in poverty for more than a short time, is a choice.  It doesn’t fit with the excuses, but it IS a CHOICE, problem is, it is a ‘bad’ choice.  There are always other options.

Hey I thought Walmart killed all manufacturing jobs in this country?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/careers/bal-factory0821,0,6235236.story?coll=bal-business-headlines

-Richard K

Poverty is NOT a choice unless you are a Monk or Nun.  Poverty is the inevitable result of a society based on privelage, inequality, hierarchy, predatory greed and exploitation (which is laughingly described as being “free").  A society that is structured and designed to benefit the strong at the expense of the weak - i.e., Social Darwinist.  I’m sorry, that’s just the way it is.  Everyone does not have an equal shot because of circumstances and class/social status.  Everyone does not have the same access to everything, everyone does not have the same intelligence (however this is defined, it’s subjective), talent, imagination, capability, skills, talent, etc.  It’s easy to sit on your high horse and look down on people because you were lucky/talented/fortunate (whatever) enough to make it.  This brings me back to my original point and argument, that people who make that argument are just Social Darwinists/Eugenics advocates, but they won’t come out and say it, because if they do, it exposes the flaws of the disgusting system that they support.  I wonder who the hell these people think they are when they judge Wal-Mart employees or anyone else making low-wage jobs.  Their arrogance is astounding.

Bob

Tiger Woods father was not poor by any sence of the word. I believe he was a retired military officer someone can correct me if I’m wrong. The fact that Tiger Woods can drive a golf ball strait for 300yds and has a great short game. Not to mention his consistancy of play. I don’t care how much you practice, if you don’t have that type of natural ability you could never rise to that leavel of play. This only proves what I have been saying Bob, each of us have our owne talents, some of them are for gaining wealth and some are for painting cars. The fact is Bob we don’t all have the Knack or the desire(at any cost) to be rich.

Some of us Bob, don’t want want to sell our souls for the almighty dollar, some of us have a conscience. Some of us believe that we have a moral and ethical responsibility that extends well beyond the boundrys of our propertys. We feel that it is more important that a child grows up healthy and strong than weather a fortune 500 co. has a great quarter as opposed to a good quarter. Some of believe that big corparations have and will destroy and polute and poisen every aspect of nature. Kill thousandsof poor children poison the air that we breath and giving kids athsma and God knows what else. To kill off whole spiecies of animals, in the name of capitalism. TO enslave millions, in the name of FREEDOME!!!!! Bob Putting profit before HUMANITY has its price, and they will have to answer for it sooner or later.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Generic Wal-Mart Wageslave,

“ Everyone does not have the same access to everything, everyone does not have the same intelligence (however this is defined, it’s subjective), talent, imagination, capability, skills, talent, etc.”

But, with a little effort, they do have the opportunity to gain these things, unless they are mentally challenged.  The fact that they don’t take advantage of these things, is their CHOICE, therefore, to continue to live in poverty, is also their choice.  Financial Management, is the thing they need most to learn, but the average ‘poor’ person knows more about sports, then they do about handling money wisely.

“ It’s easy to sit on your high horse and look down on people because you were lucky/talented/fortunate (whatever) enough to make it.”

I am neither Lucky,Talented or Fortunate, I just had the drive to get ahead and took the time to focus on that, learning what I needed to make my dreams come true.  I have moved twice to new areas of the country to keep from being dragged down by the local area and the people with no inititive to get ahead.  I have taken jobs that started out at the bottom and WORKED my way up in the companies.  I had 5 years Perfect Attendance at my last job, but worked with people who could not go a week without taking a day off and then complained that they were broke and didn’t get paid enough.

“The fact is Bob we don’t all have the Knack or the desire(at any cost) to be rich. “

Then, stop complaining about how the companies are Exploiting people, when the people are exploiting themselves.  Just giving them things like wage raises and better benefits, is not going to spark desire, it is just going to make them MORE dependent.

“ I wonder who the hell these people think they are when they judge Wal-Mart employees or anyone else making low-wage jobs.  Their arrogance is astounding.”

And, we wonder who the people are who judge Wal-Mart and anyone else who work hard to get ahead and see people asking us to “Share The Wealth”, if we are willing to take the EFFORT to make a good living, why are we obligated to give some of it to those who DON’T choose to make that same EFFORT?  Isn’t it arrogant to ask for things you didn’t EARN?

I give to charities, but if I gave to every one of them that asks for my help, I’d be broke.  Give to one and all the others will be calling daily.  And, if we keep giving to everyone who needs it, but is unwilling to earn it, soon we will need help ourselves.

Bob, I don’t give to charities. As far as I am concerned Walmart should not have to be a charity either. It only owes to the shareholders. The owners of the company. Government should not be handing out money. Why not make the users of service pay for it? Not the taxpayer. Everyone wants something for free.

IRONHEAD,

“Some of us believe that we have a moral and ethical responsibility that extends well beyond the boundrys of our propertys. We feel that it is more important that a child grows up healthy and strong than weather a fortune 500 co. has a great quarter as opposed to a good quarter. Some of believe that big corparations have and will destroy and polute and poisen every aspect of nature. Kill thousandsof poor children poison the air that we breath and giving kids athsma and God knows what else. To kill off whole spiecies of animals, in the name of capitalism. TO enslave millions, in the name of FREEDOME!!!!!”

Gee, what a BLEAK outlook you have on life, no wonder you are angry!!  Open your eyes sometime and you will see companies doing just what you want them to do.  Did not Wal-Mart help out the victims of Katrina?  Companies do a lot to help people, it’s just that you don’t notice it.  But, paying people MORE than their job is worth, in not HELPING, it just makes them satisfied of where they are at and stops the drive to do better.  Are you saying that Talent shouldn’t be rewarded?  Are you saying that Effort shouldn’t be rewarded?  Are you saying that people should be rewarded just because they EXIST?  What would happen to the world, if everyone stopped trying to get ahead and advance society?  Wealth is a measure of success, it is what makes people either ‘poor’, ‘middle class’ or ‘rich’.  Without ‘rich’ people, evryone would be ‘poor’.  Where would your job be, if your company’s owner sold out, because he had ENOUGH money and nobody else could afford to buy it?  Everyone has their place in life, and we get rewarded for what we DO, not what we NEED, that’s life accept it.

“ Putting profit before HUMANITY has its price, and they will have to answer for it sooner or later.”

And, putting HUMANITY before profit has it’s price as well, and that is TOTAL poverty.  Business is what makes the “World” work, POVERTY just uses resources and doesn’t advance society!!

Bob
Walmart should be working for the shareholder only. They should not be involved with any charity work at all of any kind. That is the shareholders money. Walmart is a business, not a charity.

Bob

You just don’t get it! Most people work hard and live a very meager existance. They work one or as in many casses two or more jobs just to make ends meet. All people are asking for is for the lifestyle that our parents were able to achieve on one job. For most Americans this is just impossible with only one income. It’s companys like WM That have helped to create this downward trend in the middleclass. Remember it was the unions that helped to bring about the prospairity that our parents had. It is the decline of the unions that has created the downward momentum that we now face. This administration has made it very protifitable in the way of tax breakes for corperations to outsource America. To destroy a way of life that has made this country great. To create poverty such as this country has only seen in the Great Depression. Such great wealth for so very few, and crumbs for the rest of us.

Rick

“Why not make the users of service pay for it? Not the taxpayer.”

Thats all most people are asking for is for the company to offer health insurance that the employee can aford for thier familys, and not have to rely on taxpayers to have to pay thier medical bills. Thank you Rick, you made my point very well.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Uh, Dave..once again those union jobs that you crow about destroyed American industry and some of the greatest companies in history. We can’t just stick wage floors and price ceilings up and use protectionist tariffs to get a happy happy fun society where everyone is equal. This has been tried and it has caused unspeakable suffering. Lord I wish they would force people to take an Economics class in school!!
Imagine you give WalMart workers 20$ an hour. Ok, now the price of bread goes to 8 bucks a loaf. Now you and your friends are screaming that the price of bread is unfair to workers and it should be regulated by law. Ok, price ceiling on bread 2$ Happy now? You’d think, wouldn’t you? Only now there isn’t any bread for anyone because no one will produce at a negative margin. I guess if that happens you can always go find the remaining members of the Khmer Rouge and they can round us all up and force us to produce bread at gunpoint… Oh, they did that already. Remind me, did it work?

Mags

More wrong wing drivle.

If you call decient wages, better working conditions, health insurance, retirement,.......ect “ The distruction of American Industry” Then you realy are living in a dream world.

People like you don’t care if 9 year old kids are sold into indentured servatude, or if people work 16hrs. per day so that they can live in company housing and are forced to buy from the company store. And at the end of each month they are farther in debt with the company than the month before. Turning them into slave labor. People like you could care less if the children of the working poor die because thier parents can’t afford a visit to a Doctor, and even should they see a Dr. they can’t afford the medications to save thier children, and are forced to watch them die because the price of a prescription is more than they make per week. People like you don’t care that the elderly have to chose between food or medication every day. People like you don’t care that this is what it was like( and still is for many) for all too many Good and Hard working Americans pryor to the UNIONS. People like you don’t care that these very same crimes against humanity are taking place in other countrys right now as we speak. And all under the wachful eyes and with the blessings of WALMART and companys like them. People like you would like things to go back to the way they were before collective bargaining. To the horrors that are going on now all over the world, and you and people like you refuse to see it or just don’t care. And all in the name of profits!!!!!!!

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

IRONHEAD,

“People like you don’t care that these very same crimes against humanity are taking place in other countrys right now as we speak.”

And your answer to this is, take those people’s jobs away from them, bring them back to America and let those people starve to death, right?

“If you call decient wages, better working conditions, health insurance, retirement,.......ect “ The distruction of American Industry” Then you realy are living in a dream world.”

Let’s try once again to get you to see our point, okay?  Think about this, if one person makes $38.50 an hour and another, less skilled person makes $20.00 an hour, how does that $38.50 an hour impact the $20.00 an hour person, when they have to pay higher prices to cover that $38.50 wage?  And, when a person gets a 3% an hour raise, do prices raise just 3%?  No, they raise maybe 4 to 5%, why, because not only does the empoyer have to pay 3% more in wages, he also has to pay 3% more in Social Security tax contributions, 3% more towards the 401K company match, 3% more towards the unemployment insurance fund, etc., not to mention paying higher prices themselves for all the raises their suppliers workers got.  So, if you get a 3% raise and prices go up by 4 to 5%, how much did you gain?  What does that raise and the resulting price increases, do to your budget?  Over time, with say 30 raises of 3%, you would be earning 90% more money, but would be paying 150% more for the products you buy, now do you understand why people now have to have 2 jobs instead of the 1 they had before?

Hey Bob
Figures lie and liars figure.

Lets see what you can pull out of your hat for next time.

Mags.....you are a comedy act if nothing else. Give a worker $20 and hour and a loaf of bread will cost $8.  How much will a bag mixed vegetables cost?

IronHead,

All those things you mentioned are now gone. Union labor took the American auto industry from the best in the world to near bottom in just a few decades. Now those “retirement” packages are going to go into the toilet. You do know what happens to pensions in a bankruptcy, right? There are other factors, but you know what the biggest factor was? Union labor produces garbage output. That’s right, your boys in the D were churning out crap in return for 10X their market value wage. Cars that broke down in a year because they had been made by people who couldn’t be fired and couldn’t be bothered. That case of affairs BIRTHED Toyota and Honda which now dominate the world auto industry. You want to do the same to American retail now?  And just by the way I do care what happens to people. I do think there are people that need help and that they should get it. What I don’t think should happen is that we should follow the old Soviet Union down the primrose path and run our economy as a charity. Socialism leads to negative productivity. There is no way to argue that it does not because it has proven itself over and over again. Negative productivity leads to shortages of basic goods and stifles innovation (to prove this to yourself name the Soviet/Eastern Block innovations of the 20th century.)

JM,

Wages are part of the costs of any good. When they rise, prices of goods also rise unless you use price ceilings or some other counter-productive force. Rising prices eradicate the face-value gains of higher worker compensation, thereby causing inflation. Inflation is bayd, mmmmkay!?

I can’t use smaller words. Maybe if I drew big colorful pictures for you. Tell me how you think the price of things is derived, JM.  Tell me how you raise wages without raising prices. And don’t say cut out the profit. We’ve already established that its 3%. Without profits they go OUT of business and profits are invested to grow the business in future.

JM in USA,

“Figures lie and liars figure.”

Maybe had you stayed awake in Math Class, you would see that figures don’t lie.  Just because the figures don’t say what you want them to say, doesn’t mean they lie.

Mags, You tell em.... I would go tell IronHead to “look for the union label” but wait. It’s hard to find them and getting harder. Seems union labor has priced themselves out of the market. Every major industry they represented at one time is now overseas in a big way. Of course it was “Management"… what bull. It was the customer-- No one wanted to buy what they made at the price and quality. Now they are bottom feeding on the Service Workers and guess what… No one is biting. The numbers of employees that choose the union are dropping. It also gives union labors like Ironhead plenty of time to sit at home and do nothing but key on this blog.

Mags......that loaf of bread is fairly expensive at $8 each. Will you throw in the peanut butter for free at least?

To all you company mouthpieces out there. How many $40,000 a year jos does it take to equal 1 job that pays $12,000,000 not to mention all the others that pay $1,000,000 in the same companys. Its the management that has priced the jobs out of the country. Its also the mgnt. team that is responsable for R&D;as well as the Engineers.  It’s the Mgnt. That is ultimatly responsable for the quality controal, and if they drop the ball ..... well hell just blame the union. Forget about taking personal responsibility. When Lee took over a failing Chrysler none of you stood and cheered the unions on and gave them the credit for turning the company around.  Instead it all went to mgnt. The same should also be true when they fail. You can’t have it both ways.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

IRONHEAD,

“well hell just blame the union. Forget about taking personal responsibility.”

Remember, you guys don’t believe in ‘personal responsibility’, you guys believe in ‘moral responsibility’.

“When Lee took over a failing Chrysler none of you stood and cheered the unions on and gave them the credit for turning the company around.  Instead it all went to mgnt.”

And, how well is Chrysler doing now?  Heard that they might have had to merge with a German company to survive.  Who’s fault was that, mamagements or the unions?  You can’t have it both ways.

Awhile back, my cousin bought a new Chevy Tahoe, when he hit a bump in the road, he noticed a rattle in the door, during a period of time, the rattle continued, so he took it into the dealer.  When they took off the door panel, they found a Pepsi can in the door, guess one of those management people walked by and put it in there, right?  A union worker wouldn’t do that, now would they?

Bob

Again Bob you try to take all the glory and give it to management and put the blame on the working stiffs. If it s the mgnt. team that gets the credit when things are good it should be they who get the credit when things go bad.  The buck stops with thoes at the top. Thats why they get the BIG bucks.

Sorry Bob but this is like one of those cat fish storys. You know the one I’m talking about. It goes somthing like this, some divers are working on the gates of a local dam. When they come back on the shore niether one will get back in the water , because they said there are cat fish big enough to swollow you whole. We have all heard that one, right? Well weve all heard that one also, Bob. Try to come up with a story that no one else has heard yet. Show some origanality Bob.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

Bob - You say people should move to different areas to find jobs. Well, that’s something I’ve done myself, but most people, including myself, don’t exactly relish the idea of leaving our family and friends behind, while I chase jobs across the country. The point is, you shouldn’t have to chase jobs across the country. And if you are, then that must say something about the current job rate!

Rick - “You don’t give to charities???” You already give to the “WMHCF” (Wal-Mart Health Care Foundation), via taxes!!!

Bob - The idea that everyone in the world could just wake up in the morning and start making “good” decisions from here on out, is great in theory. And I too, wish that would happen. But the reality is, that’s “not” going to happen! People in desperate situations (poverty), do desperate things (crime). This isn’t just their problem, it’s everyone’s problem, like it or not! Instead of just building more prisons, why not create more jobs??? This not only makes more sense, but sounds like a more realistic approach as well.

Power To The People,

“The idea that everyone in the world could just wake up in the morning and start making “good” decisions from here on out, is great in theory.”

You are right, it doesn’t happen over night, fine.  But some people NEVER even try, why?  I have given advice to some people who turn around and do the opposite and then complain how nothing ever goes right for them.  Why shouldn’t people be expected to try to make ‘good’ decisions?

“But the reality is, that’s “not” going to happen!”

So, are you saying that because people are going to continue to make ‘bad’ decisions, it is up to those who make ‘good’ decisions, to keep on propping them up?  Have they NO responsibility for their lives and the way it goes for them?  Is it YOUR responsibility to support ME, if I choose to sit at home all day dringking beer and watching T.V.?  Or, if I choose to take on a career of flipping burgers at McDonalds, is it your responsibility to make up the difference of what I earn and what I need?  Is it McDonalds?

“People in desperate situations (poverty), do desperate things (crime).”

I have found, that if you make ‘good’ decisions, you don’t get into desperate situations in the first place, so, if you have problems in your life, you can deal with them.  It is only people who constantly make ‘bad’ decisions, that are constantly in desperate situations. 

“Instead of just building more prisons, why not create more jobs??? This not only makes more sense, but sounds like a more realistic approach as well.”

Do you really believe that a person who isn’t looking for a job now, would somehow ‘over night’, go to find one if there were more of them?  A neighbor, hasn’t worked in 2 years, he says there are no jobs, but, I see banners “NOW HIRING” all over the place and the ‘jobs’ section of the paper has lots of jobs, but, he doesn’t go looking.  Before I retired, I was a supervisor at a factory, we were almost always short-handed, why, because hardly anyone came in to fill out applications and most of the ones that did, could not pass the drug test.  Is that from lack of jobs? 

I think we need to find a way to FORCE people to make better decisions.  Maybe we could teach it in schools, have courses in “How to deal with life wisely”.  If these people want to act like little children, maybe they should be treated like little children, we shouldn’t reward ‘bad’ behavior, should we?  And, taking from the people who make ‘good’ decisions and giving to those who make ‘bad’ decisions, IS REWARDING THEM!!!

Another example:  Tommy Thompson was Governor of the State of Wisconsin, and introduced two programs, “Work Fare” and “Learn Fare”, under these proposals, people would either have to work for the state or county, or they would have to attend ‘classes’ on how to make better choices and how to find work, in order to qualify for welfare checks.  Both programs were disbanded, because of outcries that they were unfair to ‘poor’ people who didn’t want to participate, but, still needed the money to live.

Bob

Man you need to get out more . Just reach out, turn off Fox news, and get out more. There is and has been a program That was started under the Clinton Admn. That program is called “Temparary Aid to Needy Familys” or TANF (it has also been called workfair). This is the only federal welfair program that will give a monthly check to to extreamly poor familys. Its only a couple of hundred dollars a month and in order for them to qualify they must attend classes(parenting, drug,G.E.D, ect.) and on top of that they must put in 40hrs. per week doing job search. This program ha sa limit for the people on it of 2 yrs.  This is a one time per person program. Once your 2 yrs is up you can never apply for this aid again. So you see Bob, The Democrats beat you to the punch by about 8 years.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

IRONHEAD,

First, I didn’t know that the Congress and Senate were controlled by the Democrates 8 years ago, and don’t they make LAWS, not the President?  And, where do you think the idea came from?  Remember, Tommy Thompson became the HUD director and he put forth the idea and he was a Republican.

Next, as you said, this is just Temporary help, to those who take advantage of it and has been very successful, dispite the negative view of it by Democrats at the time it was enacted.

Now, what happened to people who didn’t participate or those who go past the 2 years?  Do they get ‘booted’ out on the street?  No, they can find other programs to take care of them, there is always some sort of ‘safety net’.  So, while it has put a dent in poverty, the poverty level has still not been eliminated.  Face it, there will always be ‘poor’ people, no matter how hard we try to eliminate it.  There will always be people who make poor choices, people who are too lazy to find a job, people who are locked up in the drug culture, and people who think it is easier to take things from others, than to work.  The most we can do is to try to keep such behavior to a minimum.

Bob

“both programs were disbandid, because of the outcries that they were unfair to “poor” people “

You said that this program was “disbanded”.........Just more spin on your part Bob.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

IRONHEAD,

“You said that this program was “disbanded”.........Just more spin on your part Bob.”

No I didn’t, read my post again, I said that the programs in WISCONSIN WERE DISBANDED, while Gov. Thompson was still there.  The program in place now, was adopted on a national level later.

But, you didn’t answer any of my questions, why not?  Could your Clinton statement be some spin of your own?

wal-mart anti-unionism
if wal-mart or any company for that matter favors fair wages,
benefits,and fair treatment of ALL employees in the workplace
then why is the company so anti-union? After all if they are already doing these things why fight the union?
DUHHH!!! guess what ,they are against these things thats why.
anyone who cant see that is either an idiot or a right wing ideolouge.
wal-marts official policy on unionization is that it is “pro employee and maintains an open door policy with its associates”
this is word for word right out of the nathan schefferman handbook of union busting
in a quote from marty levitt,one of scheffermans former disciples,"this practice condemns working people to a life
of futility and humility”
read more in the book “confessions of a unionbuster”
by the above mentioned martin j. levitt

Bob - Yes, there is unemployed people out there sitting at home, drinking beer, and watching tv, while they could be out looking for a job. And no, I don’t feel sorry for those people at the least bit. No, people shouldn’t be rewarded for making “bad” decisions, and if making “good” decisions can be taught to those same people, then great. As far as the “Now Hiring” banners you speak of, I’m sure these jobs are minimum wagers, as most manufacturing facilites don’t display “NOW HIRING” banners. The big issue at hand here is “J-O-B-S! Sure a minimum wage job is better than no job, but minimum wage jobs don’t cut the cake! You said the factory you used to work at was always short-handed. Did you ever stop to think that your high turn-over rate may have said something about the factory you worked at???

Bob

What you said was “Tommy Thompson was the govenor of the state of Wisconson and introduced two programs “work fair” and “learn fair”. By claiming thier disbandonment you were you were trying to give the impression that these programs were not in existance at this time. That poor people just get hand outs of cash with none of these type of programs currently in place. If thats the case, then you Bob, are a WRONG. You said later “both these programs were abandoned” Bob they are currently in place, so there was no so called abandonment(SPIN). By the way it was Clinton that pushed this bill through Congress and it was Clinton that signed this bill into law.

DAVE SMITH
PROUD UNION IRONWORKER

IRONHEAD,

“If thats the case, then you Bob, are a WRONG. You said later “both these programs were abandoned” Bob they are currently in place, so there was no so called abandonment(SPIN).”

The problem you have understanding what I said, was timing.  What I was talking about with the Wisconsin issue, happened BEFORE it was finally adopted as National policy.  This is the timeline, Wisconsin tried to adopt these policies and they were abandoned, are you with me so far?  Years LATER, they were picked up by the U.S. Congress and passed as national policies, get it now?  I was not WRONG, just misunderstood.  That happens a lot on this site.

Clinton took credit for a lot of things during his administration, even though he stole the ideas from others, liberals like to do that.  Look at Al Gore, he claimed he invented the internet!!  Thinking people see through those things.

Bob.....you need to settle down. Your not in control of yourself.

JM,

It’s hard to settle down when you have to bring things down to the most simplistic form to people who shoot from the hip, don’t read well and only see one side of the coin, thinking it’s a 2 headed coin.  And, even when you take it down to basics, they still don’t get it.  They see companies falling down around them and keep chanting to continue to push them off the edge because “It’s someone else’s fault”.

So why do you punish yourself by coming here then if is so hard on you?
Are you a Wal-Mart hired gun?  I think so.