Republican Speaker of Idaho House Takes on Wal-Mart

I welcome comment by Mr. Newcomb. This is not an issue that should be drawn along a political party line. There are
some who believe a business should be allowed to set their
own economic policy regardless of local or even state con-
siderations. Now and again we’ve heard about our country
really being a republic not a democracy. It seems to me that
for those who might use that as an argument that pre civil
war United States (battle over states rights) was more in line
with that-- having evolved in to what we have today ( with a
president spreading democracy--not ideas about a republic around the world ) that and using this argument Mr.
Newcomb and the state of Idaho have every right on their
own to bring Wal-Mart to heel.

It is nice to see that some political representatives are finally figuring out how walmart achieves “always low prices”. Whether it is using abusive labor practices by its vendors in Central America or China, or feeding off public aid systems so they dont have to give sufficient benefits to employees, Walmart is a terrible business that should be boycotted.

Read between the lines. The post said that Mr. Newcomb, a so-called Republican, had secured a tax break for Albertson’s, which we all know is based in Boise and is a nationwide, union grocery chain directly competing with Wal-Mart. So he is attacking Wal-Mart because Albertson’s and it’s union tell him to. I am curious to know how much money Albertson’s managers, employees, shareholders and unions gave to him or will give to him in the next election cycle. Target, K-Mart, Sears, JC Penney and others all buy merchandise from China and from sweatshops around the world. Everyone is going after low cost because they know that the difference in quality is not as important to most consumers at the difference in price.

Repeat this after me: Wal-Mart, or any other employer, is not legally or morally responsible for employees’ health insurance, car payment, house payment, babysitter, child costs, tuition costs, self-esteem or feelings. You go to an employer and fill out an application. YOU request a job. During a hiring interview, the company says “We are offering this wage and these benefits. What do you think?” And you say “Great! When can I start?” At that point, why would you complain about pay scale of health insurance? You applied, you were accepted, you saw what they had to offer and you agreed to accept said offer. You are responsible. If you did not like their compensation, you were free to say no. And don’t say you needed a job. You could have looked for another job or left the area to find one. Why do people think we bring in millions of legal and illegal immigrants to do our work in this country? Because Americans consider themselves too good to do certain jobs. We should get people on welfare and workers comp fakers and make them take jobs cleaning restrooms and picking strawberries. Don’t be afraid of work, or of moving to find it. Where would America be if people had been afraid to to move and find opportunity?

Why is it that an individual to be a credit to this society we
live in-- has to conform to certain standards of conduct and
not a corporation? Business should go on without any re-
strictions at all no matter how it effects the society it claims to be a part of. Human activity however (at least in theory--
if not in fact) should be scrutinized and tweaked and scrutinized and tweaked some more. Better of course to have
a person working and recieving assistance rather than sitting
on their can collecting welfare. Even better to cut either off though
from any help at all whether it sinks them or not. Better that
the fruit and vegetable growers of say California deliberately
hire illegal immigrants at well below the minimum wage (not
only breaking but circumventing the law). That’s business. If
you can’t make it--too bad for you. Cut out welfare, unem-
ployment any kind of state help at all. Those who can’t make
it should starve. Their children too. We wouldn’t call that a
kind of abortion would we? People here are soft is that it?
When the Toshiba plant in our area shut down before Christmas and this 40 something year old with a wife, 3
teenagers, a mortgage and owing for his car commits suicide
I suppose I should just look at him as some kind of a goof-
ball. He should have just dropped everything and gone some-
where where opportunity beckoned. The company hires you.
Other than that it has no responsibility. We lament all kinds
of social ills--divorce, families breaking up, abortion and think
that economics have no part to play in this. Success is the real bar in this country not that divorce or abortion. Success
is what really matters. It’s the dividing line between good and
bad. I’m afraid I’m not a fan of Ayn Rand. I’m not ready to
condemn a half to three quarters of the people of this country
to an increasingly marginalized state.

yes, larry.  That 40-yr-old should have moved elsewhere for another opportunity. call me cold if you want, suicide is a dumb and selfish choice.  I will say this:

If you take a job, you are fully aware of what yo will be getting paid.  If you overextend yourself or live above your means, or don’t make a cushion for yourself, who is to blame, your employer? If you spend every penny you have, and run out of money, is that your fault or your employer’s?

Actually you do sound a little cold. It’s funny for instance
how we’re supposed to take Mr. Walton’s recent death as
something serious and not that 40 something year old. My opinion is life is its own contradiction. There’s a spanish saying from Quevedo (a contemporary of Cervantes) which
goes something like this--’What they call being born is only
beginning to die, and what they call dying is only finally dying, and what they calling living is just dying in life’.  Now
that might sound morbid to some but how I see what he’s
saying is that life and death is all part of the same simultaneous process. But people need their kings and queens, their presidents their leaders, their people to look up
to (role models) forgetting that blood is the same, forgetting
that life lived even in the most miserable conditions still amounts finally-- to what life is in the most luxurious.
As far as people living beyond their means you’d be better off saying living in ignorance of the future like we all
really do--even Mr. Walton whom I’m sure did not see his
plane crash coming until it was too late. As far as the suicide
I didn’t know this man and I’d refrain from automatically call-
ing acts of this kind either stupid or selfish.  It’s much too easy and is rather thoughtless (my opinion).

the difference larry is that the 40-yr old chose death whereas the walton died in an accident.  If you can’t see a difference in that than I won’t even try.  And I never said one was more important than the other anyway.

Well Q we all have our beginning, our in between, and our
end. One goes this way and another that way. I’m not their
judge and ultimately there is no difference. I brought this particular case up to illustrate two things--1) that some people might not see themselves as reinventable as some-
thing else (or somebody else) somewhere else. I hope thats
not too confusing. 2) that certain corporate business decisions made however impassionately can have real nasty
after effects. It’s easy enough just to look the other way. I guess what really bothers me about at least some
of the Wal-Mart supporters that come on here is the sense I
get that everything they do is justifiable. We have any number of lawsuits against them that pretty much run the
gamut of corporate abuse. We have the issues of pay and
benefits when they easily could do more but won’t. But it’s
legal and the competitors etc.--which is an excuse. We have
a deliberate intent to undermine american manufacturing to
the benefit of a foreign power that many americans consider
to be our real enemy--which is unpatriotic. They force their way into communities where they’re not wanted. They con-
sider it a goal to destroy local business--and it’s all justifiable
to you. Justifiable without a shred of real justice. I mean what do you want? Tell me what exactly they do which is good? A million and a half low paying jobs? Is that good? You
don’t count the expense for that. They make lots of money for their
major stockholders? I’ll admit they’re good at that. In my eyes they
have the potential to do a lot of good. They just don’t want to.

I find the posts very interesting, I am confused by he irresponsibility and short sighted view that an organization, such as Wal Mart is free to consume all measure of local resources without any kind of responsibility to help sustain those resources. Supplies, such as a healthy labor force is a major key to wal mart’s success. Key to good health is the ready access to appropriate health care services. I find it objectionable that a profit driven organization such as wal mart, who widely boasts of its enourmous economic success world wide, is in large part using my tax dollars to improve its bottom line. A fact of life is we will all pay for health care(whether through taxes or insurance premiums or both). A difficult pill to swallow is this notion that through its hr policies an organization serves to maximize its profit by placing a greater burden on the public health system. I would rather see my tax dollars help diagnose, treat and prevent the detrimental effects of type 2 diabetes in a middle aged adult male than take pride that my dollars helped the Walton’s climb another rung on the Forbes Ladder.

larry, part of my issue with this site is that everyone keeps bringing up the “number of lawsuits” without addressing whether or not they have merit.  Anybody can bring a lawsuit for pretty much anything without any substance to back it up. But a lot of people on here take those lawsuits and chalk them up as proof of wrongdoing.  I did understand your point earlier about the 40 yr old, just had to give you a hard time.  The two biggest problems I have with this site are:
1)it is part of a $25 million smear campaign by organized labor with the sole intent of unionizing WM.
2)Most of the people against WM on here don’t seem to believe in personal accountability.  It’s always WM’s fault for whatever lot in life some people have.

Greetings to our canadian friends. I was in Toronto earlier this week. On the QEW going up I only saw one Wal-Mart the whole way--just outside of Niagara Falls. I think Dave that they’re not interested in the old ford model where your workers have some degree of
prosperity which is
good in turn again for your own business. As for the climb up the ladder they’re already on top. On the lawsuit issue I
would expect that many of them are not very strong. I
would expect with the sheer volume though that many are. Wal-Mart of course can pay for the best legal advice around--so
could Mr. Jackson and Mr. Simpson. It
is not clear however what those filing these suits can afford. I also
believe there have been a number of court rulings they have lost though at
the present moment I can’t be specific but I’m willing to
look around because I am curious myself.

I’d look at the percentage won/lost.  I think they’ve really only lost a couple out of a great many.
I can thing of one pretty funny deal last year where some lady sued and said somebody dropped something on her foot and she suffered emotional damage and pain...Turned out she had sued just about every retailer in the state and her sister had a similar suit pending against WM where this lady was the sole “witness.”
The other example I remember is in Seattle last year the overtime lawsuit.  The original plaintiff got nothing and I think less than 1% of the people who signed off on the suit were awarded.

And yes, those that sue wal-mart can afford great lawyers.  I would surmise that most of these lawsuits are brought about by greedy lawyers trying to make big $$$ off of the largest company in america.  Can’t prove it, but its my opinion

It is interesting that some people see equality and freedom in being forced to sell one’s labor at a wage which will not provide sufficient income for one’s own good. This neo-serf situation is held by the “free marketeers” to represnt freedom, liberty and such, where monopoly capitalists rule like lords and we are supposed to bow down and ratiionalize their domination. its just the way it is. it is the magical free market. This ridiculous ideology is destroying America. Fighting tyrannical conditions is not anti- “free market”. Markets are determined by citizens, and citizens by definition must have the ability to act in their oen interests against tyrannical power, be it economic of political. In any event, you free marketeers are still rationalizing low wal-mart wages that allow wal-mart to procure your tax dollars s othey can retain 3rd world style wage structures so they can come to your town and run you rugged individual local business out of business. And as a closing note, isnt it great that the misanthropic senitment which exudes from the free marketeer arguments is always rationalized as being freedom and liberty for humanity? Interesting indeed

Justin

Actually if you go on wal-mart litigation.com there’s a sidebar that will take you to 99 verdicts that have gone against wal-mart. There’s also a class action lawsuit--the Dukes lawsuit--that is currently being held up on appeal by wal-mart’s contention that it shouldn’t be class action. If the judges ruling holds however it will apply to more than 1.5 million current and former female employees. It apparently is detailed to some extent in a book by a liza featherstone titled ‘selling women short’. From a Mother Jones article (I know you’ll love that Q)
a story about one Jennifer McLaughlin and her ongoing battle to unionize the Wal-Mart store in Paris Texas I thought was an interesting read. It mentions among other things that workers in 27 states suing Wal-Mart for violating wage and hour laws. The first case settled oregon to the plaintiffs states that Wal-Mart systematically forced workers to work overtime w/o pay. It mentions 10 NLRB anti union rulings against Wal-Mart for illegally interrogating workers, confiscation of union literature, for firing union supporters. Mentions 2000 vote by meat cutting dept. in Jacksonville Texas Wal-Mart to join UFCW that resulted in Wal-Mart eliminating meat cutting departments nationwide. There is also a mention (you’ll like this too) that when Mr. Clinton was governor of Arkansas his wife Hilary became the first woman ever appointed to the Wal-Mart board. From an article by Simon Head in the New York Review of Books information from the democratic staff of the House education and workforce committee.
For a 200 employee store (article written in 2004) the federal govt. is doling out on average more than $420,000 a year which include on average 108,000 a year for childrens health care of Wal-Mart employees. 125,000 a year in tax credtis and deductions for low income families.  42,000 a year for housing assistance. They figure it out to $2.5 billions a year for 1.2 million employees. So is it 1.2, 1.3 or 1.6? Anyway same article cites also a U. Cal. Berkeley study (2003) that puts 20.5 million dollars in medical care from the state of California and mentions that in the state of Georgia 10,000 children of Wal-Mart employees are enrolled in its program for needy children.

Back to Canada. Hunting and pecking around this site I
find in the blog addresses--alternative view from BC (as in
British Columbia). It seems that the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled against Wal-Mart in a case that the em-
ployees of a Weyburn Wal-Mart have made against WM in
an effort to unionize in Weyburn Saskatchewan. It has ruled
that Wal-Mart must produce suppeonaed anti-union material(s) that they have used in above mentioned case. Similar
actions against them in British Columbia and Quebec. Two
other place have been certified UFCW Canada in Quebec.
They are Saint Hyacinthe and Gatineau. The Supreme Court
ruling I believe would have nationwide ramifications. Another
thing about Canada. Unions are respected there by the gen-
eral population. I don’t think it’s going to be too much longer
before Wal-Mart in Canada is faced with this decision. Allow
Unions in or move out altogether.

Of course the citizens of a socialist nation such as Canada would respect a union. They don’t know any better and they have contributed no innovations or investments to the betterment of the world. Unions provide nothing but an unnecessary middleman. When you go buy a new car, you do your homework ahead of time. When you actually get to the dealership, you are not going to agree on a price that gives the salesperson a $500 commission because the salesperson adds little or no value to the transaction. The same principle applies to the unions. What they do is artificially raise the price of labor, rather than compete in a free market. If companies were not forced to deal with unions, perhaps they would remain in America instead of outsourcing. Did you know that any construction project built with tax dollars must pay “prevailing” ie. union wages? Even if non-union labor could build a building and save millions of tax dollars, your political leaders have bowed to pressure from the construction unions to shut out competitive bidding and drive up the cost of construction. They can get away with this because you can’t outsource construction but the rest of the greedy union people are getting their just deserts. All of the UAW people at GM and Ford will be out of work in a decade or less. And while I sympathize with them, it is our politicians who are to blame. Most American auto plants are in closed shop states, meaning you can’t work there unless you join the union or pay union dues. It is the unions who lose jobs first because of their artificial wage levels and that is why workers at more than 2,000 Wal-Mart stores have voted against unions. Unions=High Cost=Lost Jobs. Simple enough, eh?

Speaking of competitive bidding the chinese company currently the high bidder for Unocal from what I understand is being subsidized by its communist government. The chinese government with a big boost from the likes of Wal-
Mart has been stashing their money for a rainy day. They
also have in mind Maytag and others. In any case the United States and its free
market system in regard to the above mentioned Unocal has
a national security problem on its hands also from what I
understand (maybe you know more about it) if that sale were to go through as it entails in some aspects top(?) secret
security issues. Actually I would call using foreign contractors
in Iraq outsourcing constructions jobs (where it pertains to
that) if they’re being paid with U.S. taxpayer currency. So no it’s not
simple enough to me.
As far as Canada goes--and you might just as well say
Great Britain or Germany whether you consider them socialist or not a question to ask is if their economic systems
work better for their people than ours? I would suggest they
are at least even (though I have never visited them so feel
free to attack on that). A thing I can say about Canada though at least from my point of view it’s a much more
tolerant society than ours. It has not for one thing given itself
the mission of world policeman. It’s not obsessed about mili-
tary might or in the grip of some religious cranks apocalyptic
nightmare. Your argument maybe looked at from a Canadian
view might be well---everyone has health care (which is a
huge burden off of any business)---we’re not spending colossal amounts of money on a war machine---and nobody
runs up deficits like the americans. ---We’re the ones doing that and pretty much from opening our system and letting any country that wants to have their way with us.

In regard to poat above have visited Canada many times---not UK or Germany.

Very interesting article comparing Costco with Wal-Mart
in the Wal-Mart in the news section. They are paying their
retail employees up to $16 an hour and still making a nice
profit. I wonder if anyone would like to comment on that.

But wait, I thought nobody could afford to compete with big bad wal-mart.  Just goes to show that if mom and pop tried to find niches better they could compete, but instead they want be victims.

Larry… comparing Wal-Mart to Costco is like comparing McDonald’s to a suit & tie restraunt.  Yeah they’re both in the same basic industry but their business models are entirely different. 

Compare Sam’s to Costco and see what you come up with.  The big difference is, Sam’s & Costco need far fewer employees to sell a lot more stuff.  When you’re stocking freight at Sams or Costco for the most part you just haul a pallet out and drop it on the floor, maybe rip the plastic wrap off the pallet.  At Wal-Mart you’ve got people busting open boxes full of all kinds of stuff, finding where each item goes, and putting one item at a time on the shelf.  Costco and Sam’s are far more profitable and can afford to pay more.

Hopefully someday some of you guys will learn a little something about the retail industry and then realize why you’re the ones whining but very few people who actually work at Wal-Mart are.

Actually Cory there are a number of people who claim to
work or to have worked that have come to this forum. And
not all of them paint a flattering picture.

One way you could look at it--if you wanted to--is that
Costco is willing to share at least some of its profits with its
employees. Wal-Mart’s policy is the exact opposite. It’s more
a conquer the world philosophy and screw whoever dies along the way--including our own. Its profits go into more
expansion---go to the shareholders. Now you might argue
that that’s where their wonderful pension that puts their em-
ployees money right back into the business comes into effect--but you’re going to need a whole lot of shares going
at $49 a clip to be able to retire.

Now it’s true that I don’t know very much about their day
to day operations. However Wal-Mart is profitable enough to
be considered the USA’s most powerful company. In this re-
spect they should at least make a modest attempt to rectify
the imbalance between the wages and benefits of their own
workers and not only those in the retail market but in Amer-
ica in general. What is wrong with that?

Larry,

Wal-Mart is not America’s most powerful company. It is a retail company. Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart is as powerful as Citigroup, Berkshire Hathaway, GE, or Exxon Mobil? Exxon Mobil made more than $24 billion in profit last year. Gas prices continue to climb. Higher gas prices have a huge impact on our economy. At some point, the decreasing supply of oil will force us into a conflict, perhaps in the middle east, perhaps with China. Berkshire Hathaway is Warren Buffet’s holding company through which he owns General Re, GEICO and several other companies as well has huge stakes in Coca-Cola, Gillette and so forth. GE is the world’s largest and most profitable conglomerate. People think of GE as selling lightbulbs when in fact the bulk of their money comes from financial services. They are a huge player in venture capital and corporate finance, and they also make huge sums from jet engines, medical devices and services and nuclear services. Citigroup controls over $1 trillion in assets and is a gigantic financial player. Most of the Saudi royal Oil family invest their money in and through Citigroup. Wal-Mart, by comparison, sells sporting goods, groceries, pet items, electronic items, clothing, personal items and so on. Now, guess which of the above companies could be put out of business tomorrow by fickle shoppers? None, except Wal-Mart. Is that real power, Larry?

Larry, how big of “A number of people” out of 1.6 million are you talking about here?  I’ve seen like one or two here and there and most of them are obviously just trying to blame Wal-Mart for the problems that they themselves are responsible for.  Take “Ronnie” for instance from a while back, his general attitude was so poor in his post I can’t imagine how he could hold a job anywhere.  He was lucky to have a job, period. 

Anyway, you completely ignored the point of my post, which was to say that Wal-Mart and Costco are totally different business models and really can’t be compared. 

I’m so sick and tired of listening to ignorant people base their opinions of Wal-Marts size and profitability on REVENUE.  Take some accounting or economics classes and please, for the love of all that’s good and holy, realize the difference between revenue and profit.

“realize the difference between revenue and profit.”

Thank you Cory, at least someone gets it.

I Like Nick’s arguments. They are the most entertaining. Nick wants harmonization of labor conditions globally so Americans can freely compete with 35 cent an hour wages and no benefits like the factory girls in El Salvador do! What virtuous assertions of freedom indeed.

I also really like common sense assertion that because the US is so dependent on foregin fuel that we are just common sense going to start the third world war and radiate all our children into extinction.

This is the archetypical of republican conservative irrationality.

Some of you make out that Wal-Mart is between and a
rock and a hard place. That it’s actually doing all that it can and maybe even
more. Let’s see-- enough revenue has been set aside so that is it
6 of the now richest people in America are what they are be-
cause of Wal-Mart? Rich enough to blow $30 million on a painting in one afternoon anyway. Your top corporate bring-
ing in 17 mill--is that chump change? So we could say that
right there the labor of 1.6 million people not making very
much is being distributed somewhere. From many to a few.
It might occur to you that their model is different because
they want their model to be different. As far as ‘Ronnie’
goes what do you really know about him or anyone else here? You don’t like some comment he makes--so you de-
cide you do know him--or at least what his attitude is like.

We’re already in a confict in the Middle East. I thought everyone knew that. And not doing really well either. Iraq is
too large for the amount of men we have there. Gen. Shinsecky (hope I spelled it right) who before he was dumped as Chief of Staff (?) told them so. They wouldn’t lis-
ten. We spend more on war materials than maybe the entire
planet but we have a relatively small army. We can afford the toys but not the men. Your national guard and reserves
cover a wide spectrum of ages. They are emergency troops
(at least in the past they were).

As for China---one day China is going to decide---enough
of the diplomacy---enough of all this bs---We’re going to in-
vade Taiwan. And whoever is President then---and it might
still be who we have now is going to have a decision to make.
We have some troops in Korea (if you want to use them--not
a whole lot but it could send the wrong signal to the North Koreans) and we have some troops in Japan. Whatever we
could put there of our own is inadequate (in numbers). We have a fleet in
the area. China has been building a navy . With
nuclear capabilities. The Russians have been helping them. So that president will have the decision to fight them or not.
It’s anybody’s guess what would come about afterwards if
either side or both decide to use their heavy artillery. I would
suspect however that if we were to hit mainland China with a
nuclear strike (the only way for us to really stop them) that they are going to find out whether they can reach us. I don’t
suppose we’ll allow Wal-Mart or any other business to trade with them then.

To read these blurbs from homo economicus is just great. Learn the difference between “revenue and profit” they bleat, as they are unable to discern any type of judgement in the essence od walmart practices. These modern weavils, say “profit is all there is” “money is god” then they live their pathetic lives devoid of substance and spririt. How in the world did these types take over the USA? Where does this trite ideology gain its power? One must wonder how these same folks who rationalize walmart domination think they are spreading peace through war, true totalitarians to the bone. “Money is all” they say. “Profit is meaning” they bleat. Business domination is freedom my tv says so...good luck america, you destroyed the republic with your greed and stupidity.

Ben Franklin

All I can say it it’s great to have Ben Franklin and Tom
Jefferson on my side. Who I’m really waiting for now is John
Adams and especially Tom Paine.

Larry, since you have such a peoblem with the Waltons spending their hard earned money, do you have a problem with say… Donald Trump spending a fortune on anything, or a president spending a few thousand dollars on a hair cut, or any of the greater off people that do whatever they want ot with their money?  Should they all send every penny they make, or inherit as in this case, to say… you so you can make this land equally rich so that no one has to take pride in themself and actually work, and save, and budget?  If someone has the means to spend $30 million on a painting, them yippy for them, they have either busted their ass to make it, or been extremely smart in their budget and investing.  By the way, she donated that to a museum, guess we want to forget about all the donations she and the rest of the family do make.  Not to mention the fact, that I am pretty sure has been listed on here before, but is always easily ignored, that the Walton wealth is all tied up in Wal-Mart stock. 
Now, someone mentioned retirement plans.....  No they do not have a flat out named retirement plan we have......are you ready for this......PROFIT SHARING!!!!!!  That to me is so much better, because the company that I am working for, is putting money aside FOR me, not a penny of my own money is going into it.  Now you wanted to know where the profits Wal-Mart makes goes, that would be a rather large portion of it right there.  And no it’s not some measily amount that wouldn’t take care of you, I know of several associates that have retired, or could retire, and have had 500.000 in PS alone, and that is not including the stock that they have bought, and oh yeah that Wal-Mart matches a portion of, or the 401K, that oh yeah Wal Mart also contributes to.  Does your company do that for you?  Guess what?  I’m STILL glad!

I thought you guys were all sick to death of the museum/
charity argument? The Waltons v. Donald Trump? That’s new.
And in actuality my whole argument with Nick if I remember
correctily started with my assertion that I found it hard to
believe that any billionaire had ever busted his ass at all. At
least not enough to be that rich. Heirs and heiresses especially. The painting--the museum in the middle of nowhere---has tax writeoff written all over it. The greatly above minimum (?) substandard wages. The much hallyhooed health benefits that most of their workers can’t
afford ---depending either on a spouse with a real job making a real wage or a local or state economy that can or
can’t afford but has no choice but to give it to them anyway.
Back to the painting and the idea of charity. For art lovers who can afford to make the trip into the wilds of Appalachia.
What about health care for the 10,000 children of Wal-Mart
employees just in the state of Georgia enrolled in that states
needy childrens program? Apparently not a charity. Or maybe just not as important. Now she could have donated
20.5 million of that to the state of California (just compensation) and still have 9.5 million left over since according to a U Cal Berkeley (2003) that state in the previous year had subsidized Wal-Mart employees for that 20.5 million just in medical care for
the previous year. Goodbye Gray Davis. Hello Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes it is great budgeting. One of these days
they might even budget their own employees (with the ex-
ception of you) out of existence. Do I think Donald Trump has too much wherewithal? Of course I do. I don’t see a need
for billionaires. And quite possibly the majority of the country
would object to that. As far as your pension plan I would be-
lieve you if you were upper management or one of the Waltons themselves. Which leaves us with Bush and his hair-cut (or is it Clinton?)---these are not people I put into office
and if you’d been paying attention to this site for any time now you’d know my low opinion of either.

So, Larry is it your opinion that Mr. Sam and his wife didn’t work hard to build this company that you so obviously hate?  Do you think that just over night with the wave of his magic wand this company up and builtitself?  Do you know how great a debt he and his family went into in the beginning of building?  Have you ever read “Sam Walton Made in America”?  If not I would greatly advise you to do so.  Mr. Sam himself drove all over the country to pick up and deliver merchandise to his stores, he refused to buy planes, and logistics, until he absolutely had to, because why?  He wanted to make a profit, was that so terrible of him?  I mean the man was a genius and made something from nothing, can you say that?  So, in my opinion if his family wants to sit in their living room and burn cash for heat, it is their God given right to do with it what they please.  They are not a bunch of greedy money hoarding ogres you must think they are.  Do you know them personally?  Evidently not.
Do I think that there are some things that need to be changed about this company?  Yes.  Do I voice my opinion about idesas? Yes. Are they listened to?  yep again.  I know I am not going to change your mind about this matter, and honestly I wouldn’t want to, I only wish that before you start blabbing about all the bad things that you would take a second to #1 get some facts, #2 be a little less biased and give credit where credit is due, Wal Mart has and will continue to do alot of things for a lot of people.
As far as the “pension plan” goes you dont have to be upper management to acquire a large amount.  I personally know of a few examples off hand.  A lady I worked with when i was in high school retired after 23 years, profit sharing alone she had $300,000, stock, she had well over 100,000. She was a CSM and a cashier.  My mother, who will be celebrating her 25th year in August, her last statement, she had $200,000 in profit sharing, 30000 in 401K and I dont even want to take as guess at her stock.  She works in receiving, and is not management either.
I can only make an assumption as to who you are but you are making it easy to form an opinion......
I hope that you will read that book, it would actually open up your eyes just a bit.

Hate is a big word. I would put it as ‘would like to see it
change a few policies’. We’ve been back and forth on this
for the last 3 months and to repeat again as I said again last
week ‘if Wal-Mart were even to just raise wages into the $11-12 range they would thereby give themselves some breathing space say in regard to those evil people who would
like to see them organized’. They are far from being the best
paying retailer even.

I’m happy you can draw inspiration from Mr. Walton’s saga
of traversing the country from North to South and East to West in a beat up old chevrolet (or ford). The ‘made in America’ part of the title should nowadays be expunged. At
least the ones running his travelling road show now are in-
ternational travellers. I’m afraid I’m not going to read this
book---maybe you can tell me more about it---it’s more be-
cause biographies about celebrities and rich people and poli-
ticians (note I don’t mind reading about politics) leave me very very cold--kind of like country music.

Now if you were sticking money away in their stocks 25
or 30 years ago I could see where you might have a nice little nest egg. So I will concede that possibility. Even so that
reality has diminished in the present day for at least two reasons. 1) The value of their stock is more or less established. and 2) The real wages of the bulk of its employees is not good.

larry, lets entertain your 11-12/hr idea for just a minute.  that’s an average raise of $2/hr.  OK.  So that works out to about $4.5 billion/ yr.  Take that off of their profit($10 bill) and you’ve pretty much cut it in half.  So now for the hundreds of thousands of employees(not counting part-timers for this) who own stock, have profit sharing, 401K, you’ve just killed the value of their retirement.  Do you really think that with half the earnings per share, Wall Street would keep the stock propped up where it is?  So you would rather give people $2/hr in exchange for having their retirement wiped out?

I also wonder why you have not responded to Nick’s assertion about more powerful companies?  Could it be he’s right?

Why do you hate people who make more money than you?  You sound pretty bitter towards anyone who has worked smarter or harder and built something great for themselves.  Whats up with that?

Larry,

I am trying very hard to civil with you and your arguments but with every post, you slide further down the slope of communism. What the previous poster said about Sam Walton starting off in debt and building Wal-Mart from scratch is very true. If you believe in property rights, did not Mr. Sam have the right to do whatever he wanted with his money? Before his death, Mr. Sam had created a family partnership, Walton Enterprises, in which he and his wife, along with their 4 children, were invested. Sam and his wife owned 20% and each of the children owned 20%. Today, the arrangement is the same. Walton Enterprises owns about 38% of Wal-Mart’s stock. What that means is Alice Walton controls, indirectly, about 7.6% of the company’s stock-hardly a controlling interest. She also does not serve in an executive or director’s capacity. She does not dictate company policy and she could not if she wanted to. As to a tax write off for a painting-why would she need a tax write off? Walton Enterprises earns about $780 million per year in Wal-Mart dividends. Alice Walton’s income is taxed at the capital gains rate of 15%. Why would she try for a tax deduction? She LOST money on this deal.

Larry-Obviously you are envious of the rich. Who are you to say we do not “need” billionaires? Who decides how much money someone should have? Why is it any of your business? Unless you advocate communism, what does it matter that someone is rich and chooses how they wish to dispose of their wealth? Are you saying that Steve Jobs never busted his ass? Are you saying that Richard DeVos and Jay Van Andel, the co-founders of Amway, worth billions each when they died, didn’t bust their ass? Why does it matter if you “bust your ass”? What about busting your mind? Bill Gates has done more good for the world than any laborer you can name. Why do you believe there is dignity in blue collar work but not in work that requires one to think, to invent, to risk all? I respect your point of view, Larry, but as long as Wal-Mart follows the ever more ridiculous laws and regulations heaped on them by the incompetents of the government, you have no right to question their practices. Whether or not you believe something is right or moral is a question for customers, and your God, to decide.

Envy is also a big word. I’m secular in nature and rather
not offer an opinion on a God’s existence or not and what it would be like if it did. On that I would probably square very well with Ms. Rand. I do not necessarily rate people by their
achievements or by how much money they have. I don’t rate
their work effort on such criteria either. I don’t think it’s wise.
Some people look at sports stars and movie actors and famous people in the world of entertainment as examples to
follow. We are inundated with examples most of whom are
inadequate in their own ways. Beauty is arbitrary as a value.
So is throwing a baseball a million miles an hour. And so is
making money. Something else---I hear about hard work all
the time. Some of my co-workers will tell me their hard workers and they’re not (but that’s my opinion) what I would
rather have my co-workers say about me in this respect though is if they can depend on me to do my own job. That
I not dump it on someone else. Basically that I’m dependable in
what I do---that I don’t make mistakes---and even worse that I don’t try to lay blame on someone else if I do.

As for communism I reject that altogether. I’m not a big
fan of the heavy hand of the law without which a communist
regime (or even a Fascist one) could not operate (of which
the current administration in Washington is on a slope of its
own).

So larry, if you aren’t a fan of communism, why do you seem to bash anyone who has made money.  You didn’t really speak directly to anything Nick just said.  Or anything I said above that. 

Nick-
“Why do you believe there is dignity in blue collar work but not in work that requires one to think, to invent, to risk all?”
fantastic point.

I guess it would depend Q on what criteria you decided you wanted to use. He mentions one for larger profits and
another for control over a consortium of a number of large companies----to which I’m sure he could just as easily used
Haliburton. As a singular entity Wal-Mart certainly holds its
own however. If I’m not mistaken it’s the largest employer
to boot. If I’m not mistaken I got the assertion in the first
place from the kennedy site while looking for information on his and Corzine’s bill. It I believe quotes that from either Fortune or Forbes. Ultimately I think it’s besides the point anyway. The point being (in my view)--1)Wal-mart underpays its employees in wages and benefits while reaping huge profits and diverting large sums to their share-
holders and into expansion. 2) Whether local or state the
taxpayer picks up the burden for them more often than not
in emergency situations--or situations relating to health, pub-
lic asssistance housing etc. --3)undermines american manu-
facturing by setting policies that drive these concerns out of
the country in order to compete at at all. 4) engages in un-
fair labor practices whether this is overseas by doing busi-
ness through third parties with sweatshop suppliers or at home cheating their employees on overtime etc. 5) forces
it way into communities where it’s clearly not wanted 6) engages in sexual discrimination 7) is clearly a big booster of a for real communist dictatorship that within the next 10
to 20 years might surpass us as the worlds most powerful
country.

As for equating bashing people with a lot of money with
communism. I’m a little confused about what you’re trying to
say. Have I really bashed somebody? Really? For instance
have I hurt anyone particular? Explain. I don’t believe I’ve
said anything about anyone that would be enough to cause
them to shed a single tear. Do you? Or for that matter that will cost them a single dime. Nor have I meant to. As for
thoughts on communism I will give you these. It has clearly
not worked on its own as socio/economic system having been
given far more of a fair chance than it deserved. If you
really want to look at the Chinese model it in fact has grafted
onto its particular version ideas from the capitalistic and
socialistic west in order to undermine are societies.

I’ve read most of this discourse and LARRY WINS!

Let’s break down Larry’s points:
1) This is an opinion and not a fact.
2) This is a far larger problem with health care on a national basis, not a problem with Wal-Mart.  The public assistance policies are lax and lures people in.  If you were poor would you take the free stuff or pay $40 a month for it?  Even if Wal-Mart did in fact encourage people to use public assistance instead of their health plan, it just sounds like good friendly advice that any accountant or other loophole chaser would tell them to help save them money.  If the laws are arranged in such a way that you qualify for public assistance, then you’d be stupid not to take it.  Why pay for something when you can get it for free?  It’s the policy that needs to change.  You can’t tell me even the lowest paid people can’t afford $20 PRE-TAX out of their paycheck, if people aren’t purchasing it it’s because they can get it free elsewhere.
3) Again, a national policy issue that really at the heart of it all has little to do with Wal-Mart.  Simple economics, the guy who buys & sells cheaper stays in business while the other one fails.  Wal-Mart cannot be forced to buy American products while Target continues to buy Chinese.
4) That is mangled truth, and in the end is directly related to #3 aside from the overtime incidents which are long since a thing of the past.
5) restated more accurately “clearly not wanted by a small group of vocal people and the small group of people they’ve convinced with their distortions of truth”
6) Please prove this is Wal-Mart policy or direction from corporate headquarters.  If there is discrimination it is confined to morons in the store with their own agendas not related to Wal-Mart policy.
7) Again, see #3.  For more challenging fun, find out for me what retail company in the US doesn’t fit into this criteria?  Find me a thriving retail store that gets a large percentage of their goods from the US.

Since three of your points were all related to the same thing, the main moral of the story is that the government is letting down their end of the stick by not performing their duty as a regulating entity for the industry as whole to ensure the economic balance of the capatilist system. 

I believe that the government has decided trade with China (and other nations that “cheat” ) is worth the loss in national economic strength in order to gain favor with them. 

You cannot expect Wal-Mart to stop buying from China and expect other retailers to just follow suit out of kindness and good will toward man.  That’s ridiculous and laughable.  Even if a mutual agreement was reached between the retailers, it would basically result in a price fixing cartel and of course somebody would eventually “cheat” like the oil cartels are famously known for doing.

If the goverment did it’s job and maintained balance in the economic system there would be more jobs in the US today and outsourcing labor to other countries would be more restricted.  If there were more quality jobs on the market then public assistance wouldn’t be the problem that it is today.... Wal-Mart or not.

The european economic crises of the 1930’s could be taken as a lesson that capatilism requires goverment to be a regulator of markets to some extent, just like government needs to ensure no company gains a monopoly.  I don’t think many people pay attention to that anymore and a lot of people think capitalism can and should operate without government intervention.  It is probably true, but the downside of the cycle is so severe that you’re talking another depression era without government regulations softening the blow. 

I think the general idea of what you people are chasing after is good & noble but I think you’ve got your cannons pointed at the wrong target.  This site’s donars are wasting tens of millions of dollars to fight Wal-Mart when it could be using the money to fight congress to change economic policies.  That’s why this groups activities can be taken as nothing more than an assault on a large business by a consortium of other competing businesses. They obviously don’t really want anything to change in regards to economic deficits or health care or they’d take it up with the people who can actually do something about it and press for sweeping policies that would not attack a single corporation but instead fix the problem at its root.

That’s my small opinion.  I think Larry loses because he’s still accusing Wal-Mart for everything even though he knows and has acknowledged that the governments policies encourage all businesses & consumers to take part in the very things Wal-Mart is being negatively criticized for.

larry wins 3 things:
Number of posts
Number of words per post
Least number of unbiased facts