Sens. Kennedy, Corzine and Rep. Weiner Want Wal-Mart to Disclose Employees on Medicaid

This is great!!

WakeUpWalmart.com’s campaign to make walmart focus on health care is working...I saw this on their site this morning and I read their release on the event on the Hill!!!

I think this is going to be incredible! Kennedy and Corzine - Wow. Way to go Wake Up Walmart....

This is going to be incredible...I just know we can make this legislation pass…

Bob

While I think it’s a good idea I don’t see this legislation going anywhere without some republican support. Not that that is completely out of the question--there have been a number of republicans that have defied their leadership lately--though it at best seems to me to be a longshot to get passed.

Have gone on Senator Kennedy’s website and he has interesting fact sheet for anyone who wants to take a look.

yeah, Kennedy’s great!  Tell him to lay off the booze.  Then I might listen to him.  The best was when 2 days into Iraq, he declared it a quagmire.  What a moron.  He is bought and paid for by union dues.  what a dishonor to his namesake.

wow q, what a mature and pertinent statement that is...in fact, i dont think a single thing you said there has anything at all to do with this proposed legislation or the point its trying to make. whether you like him or not (and since you called him a “moron,” you made it as clear as any 3rd grade boy could what your feelings are), the point of this bill is to get wal-mart to be up front and honest about the number of workers they are not providing health care for. You complain about union dues, but what about all the WM stockholders and high-up officials who have salaries in the millions while your taxpayers dollars are going to pay for health care for thousands of WM employees bc they’re too cheap to do it? if youre going to be so contrary, at least find something worth opposing…

Q,
How lame is it that you have to resort to personal attacks in an attempt to prove your nonexistent point? Even the most juvenile student of history would realize that Kennedy’s ongoing efforts to provide Americans with fair working conditions and healthcare coverage parallel the efforts and ideals of his brothers John and Bobby.

Congratulations to Sen. Kennedy.
I have never had issues with someone making money.  But not at the expense of others. 
I never heard any of the management team tell workers to apply for public assistance, but I know that a high percentage were getting assistance of some kind, be it WIC, food stamps, medical card, etc.
When I still worked there, they always had a sign up by the time clock about what the average workers wages were.  Usually about $18,000. per year.  And that included actual wage and “benefits” (insurance, 401K, etc) Not much for a company the size of wallyworld.

Wal-Mart has come out in favor of legislation but with one point.  It should be fair and make all companies report the facts not just Wal-Mart.  Interesting at the news conference the UCFW was right behind Kennedy at the press conference.  Once again lets make it all not just one company.

john..you are wrong…

The reason the UFCW and WakeUpWalmart.com support this bill is that they want this legislation to tell us the truth...come on.

...the reality is wal-mart cant handle the truth...you should read more about it before you talk about this stuff...because wal-mart is the one of the worst companies about using our tax dollars…

Bob

Congratulations to Sen. Kennedy, UFCW and WakeUpWalmart.com

I think this is great, but I just don’t see this as becoming reality as the Republicans (like John in Florida) and the Supreme Court do everything they can do protect Wal-Mart.

If you look at story.  Kennedy represents his constituents in Mass.  So copying from the Reuters website:

The measure would not single out Wal-Mart. A Kennedy aide said a similar law in Massachusetts found that Wal-Mart placed third in the number of workers on public-sector health care in the state, after Dunkin’ Donuts, soon to be acquired by Pernod Ricard (PERP.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) from Allied Domecq Plc (ALLD.L: Quote, Profile, Research) , and the Stop & Shop grocery chain, a unit of Dutch retailer Ahold (AHLN.AS: Quote, Profile, Research) .

But strange I didn’t see a big poster or such bashing Dunkin’ Donuts or Stop and Shop but he sure did roll out the big poster showing Wal-mart as the evil one. 

Go to walmartfacts.com the headline is Wal-mart supports the bill as long as it does not single them out.  Seems Kennedy made a point to single out Wal-mart with the poster since the UCFW is big supporter of Kennedy so he gave them what they wanted.
Thanks for listening and go ahead bash me over the head with facts that refute what I say.

Sorry I forget one more thing.... Shhhh.. don’t let the word out put I am registered Democrat and voted for Kerry for President and usually vote Democrat most times.  If I had my wish I would like Demo President and Rep Congress or vice versa.  I think it works best that way.

“But strange I didn’t see a big poster or such bashing Dunkin’ Donuts or Stop and Shop but he sure did roll out the big poster showing Wal-mart as the evil one. “

Dunkin’ Donuts or Stop and Shop are not out to destroy the world like Wal-Mart is obessed in doing.

*Out to destroy the world*?!?! Didn’t know WalMart had that pull.Besides I had heard from Ted ‘hic’ Kennedy that Prez Bush was out to do that.Maybe he was drunk and forgot.It all goes to show when dealing with people who can’t see past their wallets(UCFW supports Teddy)tries to blame WallyWorld while Target(who unlike WalMart doesn’t offer part timers health care) is ignored.Selective intel? Or maybe just gross negligence of the truth?Kennedy is a has been who will never live up to his brothers,so I don’t see WalMart shaking too bad.Ahhhhh special interests.......makes politics more interesting.

John in Central Alabama,
Maybe you are the one who is drunk considering you can’t even master the simplest of grammar techniques. Perhaps you should be less worried about Kennedy’s ‘hics’ and more worried about the fact that you are a hick.

Also John in Central Alabama, WallyWorld was the imaginary theme park in National Lampoon’s Vacation. I don’ think Wal-Mart Watch is out to get them.

Ao Anthony, aside from the grammar in John’s post, why is it that Wal-Mart was on the poster and Not Dunkin Donuts or Stop & Shop?  Is it because they don’t have enough potential UFCW revenue.?  They obviously pay less or have worse benefits than Wal-Mart.  I think the majority of American’s roll their eye’s when Teddy speaks anyway.

Q,
Clearly you are just attacking Kennedy because you have no real point to make. Although I’m sure doing nothing but posting comments on the Walmart Watch blog all day somehow gives you the authority to speak on behalf of most Americans, I would suggest you present some sort of substantive argument or get a life.

My point is that there are no real facts on this site, only opinions, and yes, I find it funny how mad some people get when you call them out on it.  Still waiting on a single, unbiased fact on here.

I work at Walmart and I look forward to these reports if they are ever made public but only if EVERY company does it even the mom and papa stores.  I am interested in the % of each company that has people on Gov Care.  Just cause Walmart has alot fo people on Gov Care does not mean the whole company is that way.  That would be like compairing Texas and Rhode Island on this topic.

I personally have Walmart insurance it is not the greatest, but it does take care of people when you need it most.  One of my co Workers Husband just had triple bypass.  Walmart Insurance not only paid for the complete surgergy but also paid for her room and meals while out of state with her Husband.  They did not have to do that but they did.

Isnt it great how the “free marketers” bellow about property rights and the unethical nature of controlling walmarts ability to destroy the economies of small towns. I guess these virtuous Johyn Galt wannabees dont mind that their taxes are used to pay for walmarts always low wage workers.

Ben Franklin

Wal-Mart should disclose how many of its’ workers receive some form of public assistance at the same time EVERY other corporation in America discloses and just after Fat Ted Kennedy discloses how he, a Kennedy, was expelled from Harvard Law and why he left that woman to drown after driving her off a bridge and why he wasn’t charged with a crime for DUI, leaving the scene of an accident and killing a passenger in his car. Not to mention his cowardly abandonment of said passengerto die. I’m sure that cost taxpayers money. Come on, Ted Who Never Worked A Day In My Life Kennedy-what’s the story? DISCLOSE DISCLOSE DISCLOSE! Show us yours and companies will show you theirs.

Wal-Mart offers health insurance which is, by retail standards, fairly good. That is a fact. It is also more affordable and covers more than most other retail companies’ plans, including Taget. Fact. Also, all employees at Wal-Mart, all over America, can sign on for healthcare. At Taget, whether or not you can get healthcare depends on where you work. If you are a Wal-Mart employee and you choose not to purchase health insurance, why is that Wal-Mart’s fault? If you compare Wal-Mart’s health insurance with Target, K-Mart, Sears, JC Penney and so on, it will prove to be the best of the bunch.

Why isn’t Ted Booze Kennedy complaining about the PBGC bailout of any and every American company that wants to dump its’ pension obligations on the taxpayers? The steel industry, the airlines, manufacturers-all made promises they couldn’t keep and the taxpayers are picking up the cost. Next on the list of taxpayer financed pensions-GM and Ford. Where is your outrage here, Ted? Come on, tell us about the PBGC and the BILLIONS of dollars it costs us EVERY YEAR!

I have heard that most of the employees at our Wal-Mart are on Medical Assistance. Wal-Mart makes sure that you don’t have 40 hrs a week, this way they don’t have to pay you benefits!!
Our town just changed their store to a Super Wal-Mart. Of course there is a supermarket right next door that they are trying to put out of business. Now they are building another one about 25 miles from this one. And what is near it, a poor Pamida and another supermarket.... Need I say more.

Actually, Monica, yes you do need to say more.  What proof do you have that they
“makes sure that you don’t have 40 hrs a week, this way they don’t have to pay you benefits!! “

And I don’t mean my friend’s cousin’s, sisters former roommate said “XYZ”, I’m looking for some kind of evidence.

Monica

Actually, I believe Wal-Mart classifies its’ “full-time” employees as those who work 24 hours per week or more. They are elgible for benefits at 24 hours. If I am wrong, I hope that a current Wal-Mart employee could correct me. I do know that Wal-Mart’s health insurance is very good and is available to every Wal-Mart employee who works 24 hours a week. Target, on the other hand, pays worse wages, requires many more hours per week to qualify for healthcare and doesn’t cover many major procedures. Whether or not you can get health insurance at Target depends on where you live and work as well. These are facts. Now, the reason the UFCW is not attacking Target is because Target has a more upscale outlook and only 300,000 potential union members. The Liberals look down on Wal-Mart, however, as a red state, redneck, Republican hick store staffed and supported by morons and attracting trailer trash customers. It is an unfair stereotype but liberals believe it. Also, more importantly, Wal-Mart has 1.6 million potential dues paying members and the UFCW sees them and their eyes light up. They are thinking “1.6 million morons times $75 per month in dues equals $1.44 billion a year in dues in our pockets! Not to mention ‘initiation fees’”! Yes, it is sad but the UFCW sees Wal-Mart’s workforce as their ticket for survival. They mistakenly believe that Wal-Mart’s workers are none too bright. They know that other workers have rejected unions and that their numbers are on the decline. They know that right to work states are where the jobs are. And it hurts them. It’s all about Union Dues. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nick it is 28 hours a week for Full Time.  At least it was for me when I was hired 9 years ago.  And that it is also based on a 5 week avg.  So if one week i only work 20 but normally work 35 then I will not lose Insurance for that one week.

From Handbook:

Full Time 34 hours per week
If hired before Jan 1, 2002 then is 28 hours per week
Or I now hardly likely but 20 hours per week if Hired prior to Sept 1, 1979

Thank you for the correction John.  It has been a while since I looked at the Hand Book.

On a Side Note i did find it nice that WalMart Watch did place the post about John Walton’s Death on the Front Page.  It is very sad that anyone would die untimely.  My thoughts and prays go out to his family.

Legislation of this nature is done by both sides and is often done for a particular political advantage. That is not a comment on whether it will pass or not (it would need some
republican support to have any hope) nor is it to say that such legislation is not in the public interest. In the current admin-
istration it is very obvious that their idea of democracy is that the majority should rule and forget about anything to do
with a minority’s rights. I find the above comparisons to be
frankly ridiculous more or less thrown out to deflect criticism
away from what Kennedy himself calls as America’s most
powerful company. It’s always why Wal-Mart?--Why not
(insert whoever)? It’s because they are the biggest and the
worst abuser (which is how they’ve come to be the biggest).
You can argue all day long about Wal-Mart’s great health care
plan which most union members (stupidly being robbed of their hard earned union dues) would find laughable.

You guys bicker a lot here.  The point isn’t necessarily that walmart doesn’t give health benefits to its employees.  The point is that they don’t pay enough for people to afford to buy thier own health insurance, either.  When a huge company moves in and puts all of the other stores out of business by selling a lot of cheap plastic crap made in China, they don’t have to pay their employees very much.  By puting all the other stores out of business, they’ve increased their share of the market, while decreasing the number available jobs.  Higher demand for jobs together with fewer jobs means wages go down.  That theory can be extrapolated to the national job market.  It is even worse that walmart pays minimum wage while its CEOs are making hundreds of millions of dollars.  There’s something wrong with CEOs making 200 or sometimes even 2000 times what the average employee earns.  The Waltons may be the wealthiest family in America, but the money was made on the backs of the poor.

You obviously don’t care about fact, only opinion, so here’s a fact for you jess.
Wal-mart pays above minimum wage. To everyone.
Also,
there is only one CEO, not multiple as you suggest. and he doesn’t make “hundreds of millions of dollars.” In fact the CEO of Wal-mart(the largest US company), makes less than a lot of CEOS.

Whether he makes as much as other CEO’s--so what.
17 million dollars is obscene when the majority of its employees are in range of the minimum wage and falling on
both sides of the federal poverty level. The other issue brought up that policies that Wal-Mart uses undermines (sometimes destroys) other businesses narrowing the job market is very relevant and usually ignored. The bogeyman
as Q sees it is the unions especially the ones going after
Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is holy ground.

My point is that people on here tend to skew things.  the diffeence between 17 and 100 million is large.
And show me proff that anyone in WM is being paid minimum wage.
“Wal-Mart is holy ground.”
If the issue is larger than Wal-Mart, don’t single out wal-mart.  They are playing the same game as everyone else.  If you want to change the rules, change them for everyone.  If the government passes law XYZ that targets WM alone, there will be somebody else to come along and do the same thing.  Effectively the government would be dictating who wins in the market.  Not good.

actually, q you’re right.  no corporation that brings in millions of dollars in profits should be a drain to social services.  the issue is larger than walmart.  walmart just happens to be the largest company with this problem (nationwide).  we have to start somewhere.

So Jess, Why not direct the $25 million in union dues that fund this campaign and website to lobby congress and change the whole game for all companies?

The answer is simple, the UFCW and SEIU are directing this campaign in order to bring in huge amounts of money by unionizing wal-mart.  Do you really think the UFCW cares about the workers?  If that were so, what happened in SoCal last year?  I think maybe at some point in time, in some industries, unions were necessary.  However, now they have become a drag on society and really provided very little benefit to the american worker.  Quick, name one good thing the UFCW has done in the last 10 yrs.

The conservatives in here expose themselves with their “drunk teddy” arguments, they always go for charatcer assassination first then drivel out nonsensical arguments like : “obedience to power is freedom”. I feel sorry for this existence they believe in.

justin

Have to start somewhere and might as well start with the
biggest problem and anyway I didn’t say they are making minimum wage--I said they were in range of it and falling on both sides of the federal poverty level guidlines. It certainly
isn’t a dependable living wage. And from a company that is considered the most powerful in the country that makes billions in profits every year---my opinion frankly is that they
have a lot to be ashamed of. Should add also that being the
biggest and largest makes them also if you will the trendsetter for the rest.

This has got to be one of the most crazy union/leftist BS websites I have run across.

I will say, I saw it comming.  Of course, I also keep tabs on the union thugs, so I knew it was comming.  The truth is that this website is all about taking a bite out of walmarts economic pie.  The unions want walmarts money.  I was listening to a conference of union thugs a while ago and they specifically said they needed to do whatever it takes to force walmart to unionize.  So this is what they do.  Make up a bunch of crap.

I think that you utopian socialists need to take a look at the real world.  Do you think things are better at the ma and pop grocery store?  Get real!  I worked for a ma and pa grocery/merchandise store, so I know how it is.  They had a complete monopoly on are town.  The prices were twice what they should be and they didn’t pay crap for wages.  In fact, everyone started out at minimum wage and part time.  The managers of the store got two dollars an hour more and were full-time.  That is it!  The only person that benefited from our “local” store was the store owner.  Everyone else suffered.  Freak, over half of the local stores employees were high school kids.  Then along came wal-mart, and I celebrated. 

First off, they pay thier lowest employees more then the Ma and Pa store paid their managers.  Next, they keep low profit margins on there products.  Literally, most everything at walmart was half the price of the local yocal.  So, it wasn’t long before the local store went out of business.  Ya!  They were then replaced by a produce only store with better management - which has since done well.

Walmart is such a great store simply because they are fiscally responsible - Teddy Kennedy wouldn’t know anything about this.  The reason some Walmart workers are on welfare isn’t because they don’t pay them enough.  The root of the problem is that these people have tons of kids and little education.  Walmart is doing a service to our community by hiring these people who would otherwise be unemployed and really sucking money from the state.

But, that is not the issue here.  This is all about putting more money in the union fat cats hands.  Union thugs would rather health care money go to union dues.

Aaron

You are absolutely correct! I have been saying all along that the UFCW, or any union for that matter, does not really care about the plight of the workers or the profits of a company. All they see are dollar signs. They are losing membership because intelligent people realize that they are nothing more than obstructionist thugs. Someone at the UFCW heard one day that Wal-Mart had 1.6 million employees and they whipped out their calculator and decided that Wal-Mart would make them a fortune! 1.6 million workers paying $100 to join the union then $50-$100 per month in dues would give the union a minimum of $1.06 billion in the first year. That means that the union, which provides NO value to customers, vendors, stockholders or communities, will be earning 10% of Wal-Mart’s profits for 1/1 billionth of the work. What’s wrong with this picture? If the UFCW actually added value to a product, I could see paying them. But they add nothing. They are leeches; they suck a company dry until it dies or moves to India. They don’t understand the damage they cause and I would venture to say they wouldn’t care if they did understand. I don’t know about banning unions but certainly America should be right to work and every single American should have the right to work and not belong to a union. And, yes, government employess, paid with tax dollars, should not be in unions and should not be getting paid better than comparable private sector employees. Wake up, people. The UFCW could care less about your troubles. They smell money and they will do whatever they can to steal from your paycheck. They need money to keep themselves in power, fund left wing political causes and kick back a percentage to their silent “partners” (who are not the Boy Scouts). I want to see the UFCW prove that they care about workers. Ask them to committ to taking just $10 per year from each worker. Surely $160 million per year is enough to run their union! If they won’t agree to that limit, you know their goal is money and not the betterment of Wal-Mart’s workers. Any retail company that has to deal with a union should itemize its’ prices for the customers benefit. It would be similar to the charges printed on a car. When you get your receipt at the checkout, it could include each item, tax, and percentage of bill resulting from the cost of having a union. People would know that 25-50% of their grocery bill is union related. Let’s see how much support the thugs would have then!

Where do you come up with these numbers from? Out of thin air? How do you know how much their union dues will be? Specifically my rate of pay before O/T and the etcs. is above 45k. My wife is the same. I pay about $40 a month in dues. My wife is around $30. This is APWU. There was no
initiation amount. And I have the option of dropping out if I feel like it and getting the same amount of pay plus the dues then, the same health insurance, the same amount of vacation and sick leave and everything else. Maybe I’m a crazy unionist/leftist socialist utopian thug? And I didn’t even
know. Whoa. Now I really feel empowered. Thank you very much.

It’s time to take a breath (and not just me--you too). Wal-
Mart is not about to leave for India. Wal-Mart will be with us as long as there is a nickel to be made here. Now if in your
worst nightmare they were to leave---that wouldn’t be very american of that most american of companies--now would it?
So who would need them then anyway? I mean who needed
Smith-Corona? Who needed Huffy bicycles? or Levi’s jeans?
We’d learn to adjust wouldn’t we? In the new global free market place. Like we already are. Because we don’t have
much choice. You guys can watch those manufacturing jobs
leave in the hundreds of thousands and care less. The rest of us are supposed to give a rats ass about where you shop.
I don’t think so. I must have said it a hundred times here. Let them pay their people a decent wage. $11-12. Is that too much? Apparently. Croppies lie down. They make billions in
profits and the sons and daughters of their employees get to
eat because of food stamps. They can go to the hospital because of medicaid.

Larry, I wasn’t refering to the worker (you) when I said Union thugs.  I was refering to the union leaders.  Now as far as indiscriminantly raising wages: Why not raise everyones wage to $20 dollars an hour?  Wait, I actually think it should be more like $40 an hour.  That sounds pretty good to me.  That way we can all aford basically everything we want.  Right?  Unless of course it just raises inflation, but I am not going to think of that cuz it hurts my brain.  Does it hurt yours Larry?

Now Larry, you pay $40 dollars a month in union dues right?  Well guess what you just bought yourself a health insurance policy as a walmart employee.  That is how much the cost Larry.  But I bet your money is better spent buying Teddy Kennedy a hooker.  Seriously, I agree we should all pitch in to buy Teddy what he wants.  He is a great senator and he really cares about the little guy.  Here is a suggestion Larry, go to Wal-Mart and give an employee your forty dollars so they can have insurance.  You yourself that it doesn’t matter if you belong to the union.  Your job would stay the same.  Oh, except one thing. you would get constantly harrassed and then fired by your union managers.

Why do you suppose industry is getting out of the U.S. Larry?  I personally think it is because it is just so nice in pakastan that corperations want to move there offices down there.  Or, maybe it could be because excessive regulation in the U.S. has made it so they cannot compete globally.  But, I will be like you Larry and just think it is because of the nice climate in China.

Why Aaron would I set foot in that anti-union place at all?
If you’ll note above there’s a bit of scepticism in regard to
Mr. Kennedy’s motivation of the above mentioned legislation.
It’s not up to me to save Wal-Mart. I am not running for Jesus Christ in the next election. It should be up to their em-
ployer to pay them a fair wage. Which they won’t. I use the
$11-12 an hour because it seems a reasonable start and be-
cause I think it would be doable. It might mean they would have to bust the piggy back that they stuff $3 billion or more into every year or maybe they would have to delay construction on half a dozen supercenters. Big deal.

What exactly is a union manager? I’ve been working where I am for 19 years now and I don’t believe I’ve ever run into a union manager. Could you possibly mean our local’s president? A union steward? Do you know anything about what they do? I can tell you this. They don’t hire any-
one. They don’t fire anyone. They don’t harrass anyone un-
less you consider giving someone the cold shoulder as harr-
assment or not inviting them to the yearly picnic.  They even under certain circumstances do grievances for non-union employees sometimes of which there are several running around where I work some of whom I get along with just fine.

Onto Kennedy again. Whether he’s a drunk or not. How
relevant is that. Not anymore than whether Delay or Cunningham are crooks. Or that Hastert and Pelosi are running for cover anytime the shadow of a Cessna passes
overhead. These people aren’t gods. Not even close. And I
don’t care what party they belong to. You worry about these
union donations. It seems to me that Senator’s McCain and
Feingold were working on election campaign reform at one time and nobody cared. I have no problem with unions not
being able to donate. Don’t let businesses then either. The
best solution is an alloted amount of air time to all comers.
Free. Nothing else.

I will say I got a good chuckle out of the running for Jesus Christ bit.  Now, I do believe there is a place for unions.  I just beleive we should have a right to work country.

As far as union managers go, I mean your low ranking supervisor who belongs to the union.  Now, I used to work at a pipe plant.  You could “choose” to be union or not.  If you chose not to, you got all the sh*t work until you quit.  If you don’t quite, a guy dressed up in a giant rat suit will parade around and humiliate you in front of your co-workers.  That is how most unions are ran.  You probably don’t know this because you have always been union.  I guess some places may not be this extreme, but unions certainly have the power to be this extreme.

Unions are great when there really is a ligitimate problem.  Wal-Mart doesn’t have one.  This is just a bunch of socialist crap.  If people at wal-mart were getting their fingers chopped off and not being compensated, then I would be for unionizing it.  Even then, if the people want to they can always get another job.  If wages are so poor and health insurance is so bad at walmart, just go get another job because they will all pay better right?  That is why walmart has 1.6 million employees - because they have competitive wages and are a pretty good company to work for.

Now to address McCain’s crap.  Do you really think everyone should have equal free air time?  Okay, so the local chapter of the KKK (union man Bob Byrd’s favorite group) should have equal airtime?  Do you really think you should limit a publically traded company from buying airtime?  Give me a break!  I guess you could argue that it is unfair since the fcc controls the airways, and I could probably agree.  So, we need to deregulate the airways and then allow whoever wants to be on be on.

Boy, I am making a lot of spelling errors.  In my last post I even forgot to type some words..... Maybe I should join the blog union.

Well let’s just say that the weakness of our so-called de-
mocracy is quite evident when practically every election comes down to the same two parties. I mean the much
vaunted Iraqi election had any number of candidates and
parties. What’s wrong with us. Ours is probably the most
undemocratic democratic election there is. Instant runoff voting would be one way to bring more choices into the mix--
and it might break the stranglehold of power that the two we
have now possess. Even so if Perot hadn’t dropped out in 92
(at the time he was running neck and neck with Clinton with
Bush no. 1 a distant third) things could be different today than they are. We can argue whether they’d be better. In the
minds of people would be the idea that they could take power
back. You have examples of Ventura winning as an indepen-
dent. The governors of Maine and Montana are independents. Whether you like them or not--the elections of
them could be likened to peoples peaceful revolutions. So you can set a bar for someone to reach that is within reason and give them time for that. There was legislation passed in
Arizona giving people an option to run against politicians running unopposed if a person could get so many names on
his petition. That person would then be given so much air time--enough to get their message out and its my understanding that some of them have actually won. The same kind of legislation has passed in Maine, I believe another state down south and a model was being tried in
New Jersey. Other states have similar legislation in the works. I know it was in the New York assembly last year.

My major criteria for respecting someone is that they do
their job. That they don’t just dump their work on someone
else all the time. Then it’s whatever. Out of 200 craft employees where I work I’d say at any one time or another
about a dozen aren’t in. I’m opinionated enough don’t you
think. I can tell you we hardly ever discuss who is in or out.
Nobody really cares.

Byrd is KKK. Kennedy this and that. LBJ a murderer? Do
I believe it? Yeah. I also believe Thurmond was KKK. Nixon was a crook. Reagan sold Hussein chemical weapons and Bush no. 1 knew Noriega very well. I mean what’s the point.
I didn’t vote for a single one of them. Or Clinton either. Mr.
or Mrs. What makes you think it’s okay for Corning Glass to
make political contributions and not Corning Glass’s unions?
That doesn’t make any sense to me either. It sounds to me
that you’d be happy with just one party. Why bother having
an election at all?

For those interested in how the Postal Service hires. You
take an entrance examination (you’re lucky anymore if they
announce it in the local media in your area--they use to) --
you get a score. You get an additional 5 points for military
service (have to be honorably discharged). You get extra points tacked on for wartime service. All the grades are compiled from top to bottom. They contact people as they
need them from the top on down. If you’re really interested
you might need to start bugging your local postmaster to find more information.

Larry, I may have misrepresented myself.  I don’t belong to either of the two mainstream parties and I certainly think unions should be able to endorse candidates.  I am only saying I would be pretty pissed if my union dues were going to Kennedy.  I think both shareholders and union workers should be able to endorse and fund candidates. 

As far as the problems with a two party system, I agree with you.  However, I think you paint a picture of a static process when in reality the republicans and democrats certainly aren’t the same as they were ten years ago.  They are very much influenced by third parties.  The contract for america was basically Ross Perots plan.  Still, I do agree that it would be nice to break the two party mold.

My point is, unions have a place, but a company should have the right to fire union workers if they want to.  If walmart doesn’t want a union, so be it.  If walmarts working conditions so bad then maybe the employees will get jobs at Target for two dollars an hour less.  Or maybe at the ma and pa store for minimum wage and no benefits.  The problem is unions want to make walmart unionize and here is the reason.....benjamins.  It is all about the flow of green to the unions - and Teddy too.

Larry

With all due respect, where do you get this $11-$12 an hour number? Let’s do the math together. 1.6 million employees times 20 hours per week times 52 weeks per year equals 1.664 billion man hours per year. The average wage at Wal-Mart is roughly $9.00 per hour. Your average calls for $11.50 per hour. Add $2.50 per hour times 1.664 billion hours and the total is $4,160,000,000.00 That doesn’t include unemployment and payroll taxes. And it does nothing to improve Wal-Mart’s fairly decent retail health insurance. You have just cut Wal-Mart’s profits in half. For what? Do you really think everyone working at Wal-Mart is worth $11-$12 an hour? NO. In fact, I would venture to say that the minimum wage is unfair because it forces employers to pay more for low-skilled labor than they would otherwise have to pay in a true free market. It is never a question of whether Wal-Mart can afford a wage increase. They probably could get by with their profits cut in half. My point is, why should they have to? Why should they artificially raise wages when there is no labor shortage? I grew up in a town with a Corning glass factory, Larry. Just thought I’d mention that. Yes, I am an Ayn Rand fan. Yes, I do think that China is a military threat. No, I don’t worry about America’s deficit and debt. Why? Because our debt is scraps of paper. What we should really worry about are the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare. These are broke and the Democrats are doing everything they can to keep the people from controlling their own wealth. Outside of terrorism and the stupidity of most of its inhabitants, America’s greatest concerns are Social Security and Medicare-two programs which are unfunded by as much as $40 trillion. That money has to come from somewhere. It is not artificial and not a scrap of paper. We have much greater problems than Wal-Mart’s pay scale.

Perot’s major issue was a balanced budget. The social
issues use to leave him scratching his head. I use to laugh
seeing him trying to answer someones question on abortion.
You could see how uncomfortable he was talking about it. I
don’t like the idea of a company firing somebody without a
cause--whether it’s what the worker’s done or just purely economic--that may be one thing. But because he belongs to
a union is not a good reason. We can argue over the $11-12
issue (which is an out of thin air solution of mine) but it’s clear at least to me that if Wal-Mart wants to reverse some of
the negative publicity they’ve been getting they are going to
have to make a move in the direction of their employees. Their only other option is to try to weather the storm. When I
say $11-12--if they were to do something like that they could turn around and say--You see we don’t need the UFCW--we’re willing to take care of our own house. Again that number I’m using is arbitrary.

And since we are speaking arbitrarily--how do we really
place a value on someone’s work? I can go out on the floor where I am and there will be a lot of people there who have
no problem going to Wal-mart. Have no problem with the
wages Wal-Mart employees make. In fact if they were lower
they’d be even happier. A lot of these people look down on
them as some kind of inferior mutant society just because of
the wage business. There are a lot of people who see their
status in society precisely on these terms. The ability to make overrides everything. I more of less have given you
a very good idea of what’s coming into our home. We are
not rich but we’re certainly doing okay. The society you’re
suggesting is a cut throat make it or not business oriented.
As it continues to grow in that direction it will exponentially
leave a higher and higher percentage of people behind. From a personal standpoint I have a 13 yr. old who has been
diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. One major symptom of which is
a great difficulty in socializing. His average at school on his
report cards tends toward the mid 90’s. But he needs to be
pushed. He’s the type of person I could see being left behind
very easily. And there’s lots more like him. With a variety of
this and that. Our kids are being set up to be left behind. And
yes poor education standards have a lot to do with it. But what there is for them to move into when they leave all that
behind is shrinking and unless it stops shrinking what we might have could be equivalent to a third world economy. We’ll go back to the politicians here of the two major parties.
Their main emphasis is short term. Getting reelected. If not
reelected becoming a lobbyist. There is very little will in Con-
gress on either side to correct economic policy which I expect you’d agree takes a long term vision. Setting a route toward a goal. Reaching milestones on your way to the goal.
A problem for the free market people in this is getting the
population behind them if the population doesn’t itself derive a benefit. In the past a war might come along and everything
would pick up. A war is no good these days. Only a very tiny
proportion of our society works in the production of war material. Much of that is even outsourced. A worker needs a
goal to benefit his or her society. A hope that someday they’ll be able to afford to buy a house. Or once every year
or two go on a vacation somewhere. Otherwise they’re just
spinning their wheels. Going nowhere. We don’t need a socitey where the majority of people are spinning their wheels.

I will say one other thing. I’m very lucky to be where I
am. I come from a time when you did not need a college
education. I could easily be in the same financial situation as a Wal-Mart worker. I don’t believe I could make it in Wal-Mart however because I don’t think I could stomach the pep
rally stuff.

Larry, you paint a pretty poor picture.  I would say that as long as we don’t pattern our economic system after france i.e. unionizing/socializing everything we will still be able to compete in a world market.  The U.S. will never be a third world country unless we turn into socialists.

I personally have a rags to riches story (well, maybe not riches but plenty for what I need), and I truely pulled myself up by my own “bootstraps”.  It can be done if someone works hard and is moderately intellegent or follows good advice.  There is plenty of oportunity for everyone here in America.  If people work only moderately hard, they can still make a good living in America.  If these guys think walmart is bad try working as a general labourer at a construction site.  They make about the same money but at the end of the day the construction worker is tired, hungry and ready to sleep.  Wal-Mart is all-around a pretty good place to work for a low skilled worker.  In addition, if a walmart employee plays their cards right soon they will be management.

I personally know an immigrant worker who started out working at walmart and is now going to school at an ivy league institution.  He will tell you he couldn’t have done this without America’s market system and entry postitions for unskilled workers

I don’t mean to sound bleak. As far as politicians go--the
problem is having only two parties. The process has to be
opened up. Then it can start to correct itself. It’s not to my
mind impossible but it is a challenge. Keep in mind that when
The Nafta went through it was sold along the lines of ‘it’ll have very little to no harmful effect on wage levels in the
U. S. New jobs would come on the scene and quite possibly those level will even go up. It will solve illegal immigration to
a degree because definitely it will bring the wage level of the
Mexican worker up’. It didn’t happen. It’s possible that Nick’s
free trade market can work. But it hasn’t with the models
they’ve come up with and part of the problem is it’s too focused on the business that is only interested in making tons and tons of money as fast as it can. I find in some ways
our governments response to other countries trade policy curious. I think most people would say ‘Such and Such a
country has this and that tarriff against us. We will match
those tarrifs here and there and if it doesn’t work we’ll add
some more’. This of course to a free trader is naive reasoning. The same with quotas. If Korea for instance is
going to send us 500,000 cars and only allow 5,000 back
something is out of whack. To me these situations aren’t
dealt with properly. But they are dealt with coherently in the
sense that business is business and just because a multi-
national calls itself an american corporation doesn’t mean it
can’t make a profit because it can be on either or both sides of the deal.

It seems to me that describing Canada or Britain’s economic policy as socialist misses the point of whether they’re working for them or not. As I see it as long as a
government sets economic policy within its borders then it
will be tainted with socialism anyway. I’ve tried to describe this here before--that our society is democratic on the one
hand and socialist on the other. And has been for a long time.
We are not a republic anymore despite the pledge of allegiance. The Civil War is more or less the mortal blow to
that. So much for states rights. The way you might get that
back is to vote libertarian.

I am a registered libertarian.  I would disagree with you about us no longer being a republic though.  When was the last time you voted to inact a law?  We are probably still 90% republic, 10% demacratic.  Oh, and I was talking about France not canada or britian - although I can see the socialism similarities.

If you want to talk bad about NAFTA, I think I would agree with you.  Where I guess we disagree is that I believe powerful unions aren’t in the american worker’s best interest.  When they purposely plan an attack on one of americas most productive companies just because they aren’t union, I feel threatened.  These are the people I refer to as union thugs.  Just so they don’t feel empowered maybe I should refer to them as they are - flits.  The union flits have targeted wal-mart because they want more union dues due to manufacturing jobs going over seas.  I think we would have kept most of these jobs if it hadn’t been for restrictive regualtions put on the companies by our government and the big unions.

Anyway, I will continue to shop at walmart out of principal.  American business should be taking notes on what walmart has acomplished and patern their businesses after wal-mart.  That way everyone would get a better price and a better wage.

Here is a minor but important reason I would never join a union:  www.ytedk.com/ Everyone should take a look.  Maybe they will learn something new.

After all that and I thought I finally convinced you. Hah!
Hah! Hah! A day will come when there’s no Byrd or Kennedy--what will you do then? The french are the french. They are
not in line with us. Neither are the Germans. It has a lot to
do with Bush. My mothers people were French from Dieppe
in Normandy. They emigrated originally to Canada (Quebec
City) and migrated down to the Pennsylvania coal fields.  My
grandfather James and his brother John both fought in WW1.
John under MacArthur. John was gassed I believe in the Ar-
dennes forest and spent the rest of his life in a sanatarium. I
only saw him a couple of times but I remember my grand-
father pretty well.

That sucks for your uncle.  So would you agree that the French and the Germans have gone too far?  They seem to be struggling to keep up with other developed economies.

The problem I see with democrats is they will take anyone into their party as long as they hate republicans.  In fact, I think it is the only unifying theme.  That is why you have ted kennedys and bob byrds in the party.  After they are gone some other crooks will replace them.

I will say I think we are more alike then we are different, Larry.  We probably both want the same things - just different ideas of how to get there.  Of course, there is the generational gap too.  I am in my early twenties and you are one foot in the grave (just kidding).  In my perfect world there would only be a flat income tax and use taxes.  We would have litte government regulations so any of us can easily open up our own little walmart or whatever.  Also, we would get rid of corporate welfare.  I think that is BS.  One more thing, unions could be formed but they would have no protection from the government. 

Oh that is a great picture of prosperity!  Just think how effecient our country would be!  It would allow “natural selection” to pick the strongest business model and America as a whole would evolve to be an even greater country.

Aaron,
You have no right say what is right or wrong about Walmart.  You only buy their cheap undewear and paper towels.  You do not work side by side with the single mothers who have o decide whether to pay the rent, pay the bills, or feed their children.  You do not work side by side with the fathers who anquish over not being able to afford medical coverage for a sick child.  You do not cash a meager pay check while reading how the daughter of Sam Walton spends 3.5 million dollars on a weekend shopping spree in NYC.  You live in a bubble Aaron.  Take the silver spoon out of your mouth and come to the realization that companies like Walmart hold their employees in a black hole where there is no where else to turn.  these people are not looking for handouts.  They want a fair wage for the work they do.  They want decent medical coverage so that they can take care of their families.  They want to be recognized by their employer that the work they do is important to the company, not just chewed up and spit out like a worn piece of rawhide bone.  This is the reality at Walmart.  It has nothing to do with getting rich, getting something for nothing, or trying to get something for nothing.  You are naive if you think anythink other than this, or perhaps your right wing narrowmindness won’t allow you to open yor eyes to the truth of the matter.  I work at Walmart, my wife works at Walmart.  The total lack of respect that management shows to its workers is not only unethical, it is criminal.  Trust me, I am not writing this out of some personal vendatta against my employer.  I just feel that you are totally out of touch of what is going on inside these stores.  I am not pro union by any means.  In fact, i agree with a point you made earlier in this forum about unions having served their purpose but not being valid in todays society.  However, there has to be a watchdog.  Walmart has become an 800 pound gorilla that is tearing up the countryside in search of its bananas.  Senators Kennedy and Corzine are on the right track.  BTW, you attacked Kennedy, can you not find any fault with Corzine?

Chris, the silver spoon I was raised with is pretty tarnished.  I came from an economically disadvataged family.  Our yearly wages never were higher then 12K per year - that is with five kids.  So don’t give me your b*llsh*t.  I started working full-time during the summers when I turned eleven for a meager 2.75 an hour when the minimum wage was 4.75.  It wasn’t at some crybaby easy place like walmart either.  My first job was digging trenches for sprinklers.  I worked ten hours a day five days a week, and I was and am grateful to my employer for breaking the law to help me out.  You bitch about your job at walmart?  If you would quit dicking the dog and put your back into it you could go somewhere too.

When I was sixteen I went to an alternative high school at night so I could work full-time in the day.  Now, just a few years later I have everthing I need.  America is a great country and walmart is a great stepping stone.  Tell your local co-workers to cancel their forty dollar cable bill and then they will be able to afford health insurance.  If they have fourteen kids then they could be working just about anywhere and they wouldn’t have the means to support them.  Of course, then they would get medicaid and foodstamps.

So Chris, your bitch fest is falling on def ears.  You have no idea how plush you have it.  All I can say is you are a complete pussy.  Maybe if you had a better outlook on life you would be in my position now instead of your own.

Do not even try to tell me about hard work.  I have been working since the age of 12, my first job was shoveling pony crap at the Pittsburgh zoo.  Of cours your response is typical of the conservative right wing my way is the best attitude that is dragging this country down.  I work full time, go to school full time, support my family, pay my taxes.  i have never accepted food stamps or any other govrment hand-out.  Anything I have, i earned with the sweat of my brow and the muscles in my back, so do not patronize me with your holier than thou rhetoric.  The fact that this, as you put it, falls on deaf ears (learn to spell asswipe) just shows how narrowminded you conservatives are.  I know what I have and I truly appreciate everthing.  The fact is you really don’t understand how bad these people have it and that is truly sad.  Open your eyes you blind, narrowminded, republican elitest and see what is around you.

Chris, I am sure you worked really hard at the zoo.  Did they pay you with a free pass and some popcorn?  The only reason your life is in shambles is you are a lazy ass looking for handouts.  Oh wait, you don’t ask for any handouts - excluding handouts from walmart.

I understand how hard it can be for some people to make it - mainly women with children and handicapped people.  Chris there is no excuse for you - unless you fall into the latter category.  If you life is so bad get a job that is actually tough.  Work as a carpenter, a mud mixer, an excavator or just about any other labor job.  You will make a little more money.  Oh wait I almost forgot, Chris you are a pussy.  Wal-Mart is too tough for you.  Fat chance of you actually doing hard labor.

There is no excuse for someone who has a strong back and a little will to not be making it in America.  As I have said before, jobs like walmart are great stepping-stones.  You are able to work there and go to school.  You should be grateful they give you shifts that allow that.  Instead, you want to hurt the company that helps your sorry ass.

Now, as far as a republican elitist, I am not a republican.  I am anything but narrow-minded.  I just have seen first hand how a person can change their social standings in a few short years.  Just because you are lazy, chris doesn’t mean everyone is and it doesn’t mean you should get special treatment for being lazy.

I would hope you are smart enough to take your own advice about learning how to spell.  Here is a short list of your perfect spelling in your last paragraph:  cours, govrment, narrowminded, everthing and elitest.  I may have missed an a in deaf but your a dumbass.  I only brought it up because you did first.  I normally wouldn’t stoop as low as you and bring up a petty diversion.

Hello Aaron,
You got me on the spelling thing.  However, dp npt presume that I do not know what hard work is.  With 20 years in a chemical factory and 5 in construction under my belt I know what back breaking work is.  You claim that you pulled yourself up from an economically disadvantaged situation. If this is true, you above all people should know how a person can get trapped in this scenario.  As I stated earlier, I work full time (in the TLE garage, not the store), and I go to school full time in order to improve my situation.  Do not call me lazy.
By the way, the zoo job paid 2 dollars a day, at a time when minimum wage was $2.10 an hour

Chris

I know this will upset you but I agree with Aaron all the way. Did you know that Wal-Mart’s monthly health insurance premium is roughly $40? Why don’t Wal-Mart’s employees buy it? Assuming you work 28 hour per week at $7.50 per hour, you would gross $10,920 in a year. Your health insurance at Wal-Mart would cost you $480 per year. That is just 4.4% of your gross income spent on health insurance. Not too bad in this day and age. Why don’t people spend the $40? Well, they must figure that it is cheaper to get health care for free and blame Wal-Mart. If you looked up Wal-Mart’s plan you would know that it is rather good for the type of work required to be elgible for it.

Chris-I also grew up poor and while I am not yet where I want to be fiancially, I am not starving either. I do not blame society for my failures and I do not blame my employer for my poor choices. If you are a single mother and you choose to get pregnant again, I feel that the taxpayers should take away ALL benefits. People are not entitled to free housing and healthcare and cars and clothes and food and so on. If you give the government $1 billion to give to charity and Bill Gates gives $1 billion to charity, who will be more effective? Whenever government spends your money, they are taking from you, skimming off their considerable overhead, giving a share to your neighbors and competitors and then returning a tiny portion to you. Is that fair? Should I have to pay for your poor choices in life? People are suckers for senior citizens having to choose between prescription drugs and Las Vegas. We are supposed to sympathize with single mothers who have 5 children to 3 different men; with people who are out of work and not willing to move to find more work; people who live on a floodplain and who refuse to purchase flood insurance; farmers who are paid not to grow crops; people who can afford health insurance but are too cheap to pay for it and so on. I have no sympathy for people who can help it. There are winners and there are losers. That is the way the world has always been and should always be. You can’t lift everyone up; some people have to fall. If you are on a lifeboat that holds 40 people and there are 45 people in the boat, nearly sinking it, do you stop to pick up 20 other people who will drown or do you row away, content to save 45 instead of killing 65?

By the way, I am a registered Libertarian, socially and economically on the conservative side, a believer in Ayn Rand and in moral values, personal responsibility, survival of the fittest, consumption taxation and a small, very limited central government. Does that make me a bad person?

“It’s a zero sum game, pal. Some win, some lose”.

Please control your temper Aaron. You’re setting off the
cyber-sentinel that my wife installed---unless that is you want to silence me for good--then you’ve found the way.

Situations when you’re in your mid to late 20’s often change when you reach your 30’s 40’s and 50’s. I think Chris has made some good points. I did detect some anger
but he didn’t seem to be spoiling for a fight.

Actually Nick I’m glad you separated Ayn Rand from moral values. (kind of anyway). I know her only by her fiction
which I consider poorly concieved (I think it’s in Atlas shrugged where waves of aircraft full of good guys attack the
headquarters of the black hats in a midnight raid and civiliza-
tion is saved) and filled with ranting. Probably not altogether
unlike L. Ron Hubbard in plot. It also has some paralells with
Reagan’s trickle down economy. Just let the innovators loose
and in the long run everyone will benefit. I would suggest
Jonathan Coe’s ‘The Winshaw Legacy’ a novel not filled with
economic theory---a kind of murder/mystery/comedy on one
hand and a critique on the social and economic policy of Thatcher’s Britain on the other which has a false ending and then not a very nice ending. The late 50’s and early 60’s
justaposed against a new world order of the 80’s--the effects
of law and policy on a varitey of social and economic criteria.
I found that it applies to us in may cases. Particularly disturbing to me was Agribusiness--with the attendant govt.
subsidies to multi-million(billion) dollar business. A drop in
overall food standards in order to speed up for demand and
to maximize on profit. The ease to the consumer’s mind for
the prepackaged doctored up shove it in the microwave products that have made not only them but us a much un-
healthier culture.

Anyway back to letting the innovators loose and in the long run everyone will benefit. I see at least 4 questions here. How do we tell who an innovator is? How do we set him
loose? How long will the long run be? And what will be the
benefit?-------And of course it depends on the innovations and what they’re meant to do and on the ‘well meaning’
people who in the end will fund it all. And there needs to be
care taken even then. Alexander Shulgin (aka Dr. Ecstasy)
lives in the San Francisco area and has designed many kinds
of drugs (hallucinogenics). He makes them and then the govt.
makes them illegal. He designs some more, etc. etc.

This Shulgin in any case seems to be operating with quite
a bit of freedom and as far as I know has never been to jail.
Might also add here that many of our industries get all kinds
of govt. subsidies for R & D (otherwise known as Corporate
Welfare) which monies are often applied to advertising for one. The pharmaceutical industry wants you to know about
Viagra and other quality of life enhancing drugs. They stick
the money in areas where they hope to derive the most profit coming back. They export drugs to other countries for
a lot less than they charge consumers here who pay for their
R & D in the first place. Then they move to restrict your ability to reimport. This is part of Bush’s vaunted Health Care
plan of last year.

Another innovator. Fritz Haber. German chemist. Nobel
Prize 1918. Wife Clara. Also a respected chemist. Fritz de-
veloped first poison gas (chlorine) used in World War I. His
wife adamantly opposed to its development shot herself with his service revolver at a party given to celebrate its first
success on the western front. He didn’t stick around for the
funeral. He was off the next day to the eastern front to see
how it worked against the Czar’s (pre-Lenin) Russian army.
Later on he posited the opinion that death by lethal gas was
more or less the same as any other kind of death. Between the wars he developed Zyklon B which became a favorite of
the Nazi’s in their death camps. Being born a jew (later con-
verted to christianity) he took the wise precaution of leaving
his country after Hitler came to power and before he became the victim of his own invention.

Larry

I did not seperate Ayn Rand from moral values to make a distinction. I was merely saying that I believed in the value of Ayn Rand’s teachings and in moral values. Ayn Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, is a complete opposite of Collectivism. Collectivism is a viewpoint shared by soviet Russia, American liberals, the french, Democrats, unions and other assorted groups who make up the idiot masses. In “Atlas Shrugged” Ayn Rand presents a society that resembles, eerily I might add, that of present day America. People are unhappy that those with ambition and hard work are getting ahead. People with new, profitable ideas are making it impossible for those in power to maintain the status quo. Many people are failures and blame their failures on those with ability. So, the country begins to crack down on those who are productive by seizing property, enforcing production quotas, making allotments of certain products to favored individuals and punishing anyone who attempts to get ahead. The “Collective Good” is trumpeted. Of course, in the end, it is all a massive failure. Capitalism proves to be the best system and emerges triumphant. If you read “Atlas Shrugged” it will frighten you.

“Atlas Shrugged” is the 2nd most popular and influential book in the world, after the bible. Ayn Rand is not without moral values; in fact, she taught that moral values come from reason and logic not emotion. She advocated a society in which coercion, emotion, sloth, inefficiency, regulation, and oppression did not exist. Her ideal society was one in which a small federal government took as little money as possible from the taxpayers. Property rights, real and personal, would be respected. People would have the right to choose where they work, where they live, where they go to school, own guns, vote, own property and be left alone. Those who violated personal, political or property rights would be punished harshly. Basically, Ayn Rand advocated a Libertarian society. Call it survival of the fittest or what you will but that is how the world once was, and now should be.

If you haven’t read “Atlas Shrugged” I highly suggest doing so ASAP.

Of all the people who come here Nick I think you are the
one that makes me think the hardest. I read 3 of Rand’s books a long long time ago. I would say “We the living” is
her most realistic and best realized book. The other two “the
Fountainhead” and “Atlas Shrugged” I had problems with---
especially the latter which just speaking in an artistic sense
is badly marred by a hokey ending. To be honest with you I
have not read her non-fiction which is where I really think you’d need to look to find out what she was about. In her novels she seemed to often lose sight of her story and go off
on these lectures about capitalism or society or whatever and
seemed almost to have the quality of a sermon. It’s true she
was very popular in her time and probably still sells well. To me what she needed was a good editor to lop 2 or 300 pages
of superfluous material out of those last two.

This issue really though is whether it can work the way you for one think it can. I think our definition of progress is
completely different. You see it in innovation. A select few
individuals leading the way. Maybe I’m wrong. But it seems
from the list of Billionaires of High Tech etc. etc. I don’t mean
to make it sound too simplistic but I don’t want to go on and
on either. My idea of progress is something more in the line of what moves society forward as a whole that reaches or tries to into each individual for something worth bringing out.
I don’t know also if it’s worthwhile to call the ‘masses’ ‘idiots’.
Many of these same people were gulping down Rand’s books
too.

As far as the Libertarians to my mind it is very important
that they grow as a party. We need more parties and more
dialogue. We need an electorate not willing to settle for the
lesser evil. We need people who are willing to make up their
own minds and strong enough not to sell out their convictions.

Larry

You make a valid point. Certainly it would be wonderful if everyone were equal but in the world in which we live, there has to be winners and losers. If nobody loses, nobody wins. I do not mean that people need to be crushed by force or oppression. I despise people who use force to bully and harass others. That said, I do believe that if you take away man’s reward for innovating and achieving success, you take away innovation. If one has nothing to gain from a new discovery, why make an effort to discover? There has to be a set of rewards. Everyone knows that money and security are rewards that come from success. If you take away those rewards and give to all on an equal basis, you stifle creativity and rational thought. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” is the cornerstone of Marxist thought. If you tell everyone that they will have all their needs met regardless of their contribution, there needs will dramtically rise while their contributions will be non-existent. That is human nature and it would be even more so in the lazy and apathetic society of morons we have today. People are more worried about MTV and their ipods than they are about freedom and information and the future of this great country. I do believe that today’s generation would lay down and surrender if they were guaranteed their pathetic little lifestyles.

I am a registered Libertarian and I do agree with many of their points. I think that extreme right wing nutjobs are just as dangerous as liberals. What we need in this country are 1. A court system in which judges follow THE CONSTITUTION and not “precedent”. 2. Term limits. 3. Elimination of lobbyists. 4. A consumption tax. 5. A small central government that leaves everything but national defense, currency regulation and the federal court system to the states or to the people.  We should shut down the Departments of Education, Commerce, Energy, Health & Human Services, Agriculture and Homeland Security (waste). We should eliminate farm subsidies, price supports, public housing, government loans, the REA, the TVA and other assorted waste projects. And we should take a more active role in prosecuting the scum who violate their constitutional oaths. We really should take lessons from Singapore with regards to open, honest government and law enforcement. If you are a government official in Singapore and you get caught taking bribes or stealing tax dollars, I don’t have to tell you that the punishments are rather severe. But I digress. I enjoy your posts, Larry. Keep them coming!

you people have no idea what you are talking about My mother worked for walmart for 15 years before she died of liver cancer she had the walmart insurance her medical treatments were $40,000 a month and when she died her insurance paid all but $1500 i think thats pretty good if you ask me It allowed us to keep the $50,000 in life insurance she had with walmart. if you want to condemn a company for low low low wages take a big hard look at Dollar General i worked there for 2 years and almost went broke doing it they use and abuse you and it cost you your own gas and money to travel to other stores for them i now work at walmart and am making twice as much as i did at DG.