SF Chronicle: Hercules raises stakes in Wal-Mart standoff

Not to go with the plan Hercules. So many lives ll be ruined coz of unemployment and think of the downfall in the economy. The over all standard of the country will be affected.

I’m dead-set opposed to eminent domain like this regardless of whether or not it benefits Wal-Mart OR if it is against Wal-Mart.

This appears to be a perfect example of eminent domain that everyone agreed was bad, even Generic. The story tells how the government would like to take from Wal-Mart and give the land to other private entities. 

Government taking private land to build a bus station or a school? Yeah, it is at least worth discussion.

Government taking private land to give to hoity-toity boutiques? Not even worth bringing to the table. There even seems to be a class aspect here of a “rich” place regulating to keep poor shoppers out.

As for the problems of the Wal-Mart store taking up too much land, why don’t they just add a 2nd or 3rd floor?? Wal-Mart is notoriously inflexible when it comes to store design.
There are legitimate concerns by the city, such as the zoning changes.

There are concerns that are not legitimate, such as the city’s economic analysis.  The concern about the average income of the shoppers is a good example of ludicrous and unnecessary government regulation and over-oversight.

What happened to the company policy “if a town does not want us we will not come”?  This town does not want WM an this is not just a few crazies as most are called but the whole town, so stay the hell away WM!

“What happened to the company policy �if a town does not want us we will not come�? “

Is there YET an example of someone saying “This town does not want it”, but when the store opens, most of the customers are local?

And what do you want, NTD? A system in which anyone who wants to open a business has to bring it before a town council for a vote?

Go get them Hercules!

That Hercules was always tough.

I took on Golaith and won!

Have not stepped foot in a WM store or a subsidiary in 2 years and I am doing just fine, thank you!  Maybe you could try to use a different argument than that old one of that it’s only a few that don’t want WM.  As for this town you will see just how bad THEY do not want WM, in a very short time.

I can tell you if this town gets this done it will be the nightmare WM has been dreading for years and then I want to hear your lame excuse for why WM should be in this town.

As for getting permission to open a business, you have to get permission to build a garage on your house in 99% of the towns and Cities in the US because of zoning and hopefully the town has a long-term growth plan.  So that this very thing, a WM is not built next to your new garage attached to your house in your nice quit neighborhood and now it is all turned upside-down!

“Maybe you could try to use a different argument than that old one of that it’s only a few that don’t want WM”

That’s a pretty good one, especailly when there are claims of a “town” not wanting it.

“As for this town you will see just how bad THEY do not want WM, in a very short time”

If you are so sure the town does not want it, let the store open! If it is not wanted, it will close in mere months due to lack of business, and Wal-Mart will be gone without having the hassle of entirely frivolous lawsuits or the danger of supporting government theft of land to give to corporations.

“I can tell you if this town gets this done it will be the nightmare WM has been dreading for years”

It’s a nightmare for ALL when government leaders can seize private real estate by “eminent domain” just so they can give the land to businesses they like.

This subject shows the hypocrisy of WMW.  Previously they were complaining that Walmart will get an improved road because the city exercised its perogative to obtain land which was already under easement.

Now they are saying that Walmart should give up land which they bought and own under iminent domain when the only reason Hercules wants the land is to prevent Walmart from building.  Also a number of the participants on this site were griping about iminent domain was excercised for other than truly public use.

Also one of the arguments is that most Walmart shoppers earn less than the $90,000 average income in Hercules.  What about the less fortunate in Hercules who do not average $90,000.  WMW is always arguing for the less fortunate.  How about the less fortunate in Hercules.  Let all of the citizens vote or just let the store suceed for fail on its own, rather than letting the special interest groups deprive lower income people of a way to live.

Yes lets have a vote and if it is down with WM will you please tell them to leave and not return?  I bet WM won’t agree to this.

How about instead of a vote, those who like it go to it and those who don’t like it ignore it and never shop there?

So using the same reasoning as the build a store and if the people don’t want it it will close, then if the Walmart associates want a union, then why fight it?  If they are not satisfied they can decertify it. Walmart can’t play the game so why should the citizens of this city in Hercules?

The best post yet and you won’t hear yes you are right from the WM lovers.

So how about it Coherent, lets hear you champion to let the unions in as load as you yell for WM.  Thats if you are for fair treatment for all.

Yes Billy. It is kind of funny that the WM supporters will argue to let people decide by shopping or not shopping, yet they do everything legal and unethical to prevent their workers practising their right to unionize.
Walmart in Canada is considered the lowest of low on the ethics scale by many. Just by listening to the radio talk shows they do not have the respect of the business world also from what I have heard.

SOMETHING must be done to stop an un-welcomed Wal-Mart.  Wal Mart cannot be allowed to be a strong voice than a municiple government, or the will of the people.  The pull quote “We think it’s clearly wrong for the city to take private property for political reasons,’’ said company spokesman Kevin Loscotoff, predicting that litigation would cost the city millions of dollars.  Read that as “let us do what we want or we’ll sue you into submission.  Wal Mart is not a “natural” business, the company can hang onto a failing store for years and years instead of closing it up if it doesn’t succeed.  And IF they close it up? You have a very large, very empty Wal Mart that no one wants to purchase to tear down.

“yet they do everything legal and unethical to prevent their workers practising their right to unionize. “

Nothing is stopping the workers from giving money to unions if they want.

“So how about it Coherent, lets hear you champion to let the unions in as load as you yell for WM”

Why should the workers be harassed by outside soliciters?

YEAH Coherent...

Isn’t there just a little hypocrisy in your posts?  You seem to be of the opinion, “just let Wal-Mart build it.  If the people don’t want it, they won’t shop there.” Right?

Why don’t you advocate this same approach to allowing the workers at Wal-Mart to unionize?  If the workers don’t want a union, they won’t vote for one---PERIOD!  Why don’t you use your “influence” and tell the upper management at Wal-Mart to save their time and money, and stop sending out their special Anti-Union team, and stop their tactics of imtimidating and brainwashing “associates” about the “evils of a union.” Aren’t the Associates smart enough to figure it out by themselves?

I’m going to call the bluff of not only you, but Paul and others as well.  I agree....let the citizens of a community vote on whether or not they want a Wal-Mart in their community.  It hasn’t happened anywhere that I’m aware of.  If you know of any examples where Wal-Mart has been put on a public referendum and the PEOPLE voted in favor of it, let us all know!  The strategy Wal-Mart typically uses, is to arrange pre-annexation agreements secretly with small town councils and city planning commissions and part-time mayors.  When there is even a hint of Wal-Mart coming to town, and citizens ask their local council members about it, their inquiries are usually met with denials.  What’s the big deal?  Why deny that talks are taking place with Wal-Mart if MOST of the people want it?  I speak from experience.  Where are the voters in this process?  Wal-Mart NEVER wants to be open and transparent about coming into a new community.  Why?  Because they know they will get their asses kicked all the way back to Bentonville!  Yes...by all means!  Let’s put the question of Wal-Mart to the voters from now on!  And don’t give us that tired over-used “argument” that people “vote with their dollars!” Only our big government works that way.... one dollar...one vote!

By the way....the city voted unanimously last night in favor of using eminent domain and 300 citizens mostly cheered the decision.  Yeah...I would say they all want Wal-Mart really bad in Hercules.  Where were all of the citizens who were in favor of Wal-Mart?

More MINDLESS Blabber from Coherent:

He says: “Why should the workers be harassed by outside soliciters?”

Is it OK for Wal-Mart to harrass and intimidate its “associates?”

screwed: “Why don�t you advocate this same approach to allowing the workers at Wal-Mart to unionize? “

I’m open to the idea as long as the decision is left to the workers. Let each worker choose.

“and tell the upper management at Wal-Mart to save their time and money, and stop sending out their special Anti-Union team, and stop their tactics of imtimidating and brainwashing �associates� about the �evils of a union.�”

If local Baptist churches had a habit of “infiltrating” Wal-Marts to harass the workers and bully them into giving the churches money, I’m sure that the company would have teams to combat church-bullies as well. It is the same sort of thing.

“If the workers don�t want a union, they won�t vote for one---PERIOD! “

It doesn’t even have to be up for a vote. The workers who like it could join it, those who don’t like it, don’t join it. This puts the power in the hands of the workers. The most power for all workers, not just those who happen to agree with you!

“What�s the big deal?  Why deny that talks are taking place with Wal-Mart if MOST of the people want it?”

Because you end up with tiny groups who claim to speak for the “community” who end up harassing the company with entirely frivolous lawsuits.

“300 citizens mostly cheered the decision.  Yeah...I would say they all want Wal-Mart really bad in Hercules.  Where were all of the citizens who were in favor of Wal-Mart? “

In 2000, Hercules had a population of 19488. That leaves 19188 who weren’t “mostly cheering” the decision. At least some of them are in favor of it, right?

Actually, it is a little disturbing that 300 forced their will on the rest of the 19,188 to deny them choices. But more disturbing is the precedent that this abuse of “eminent domain” represents: the government robbing from private interests to serve other private interests who are quite wealthy. Perhaps even Generic would agree that blatant abuse of “eminent domain” like this is not the best way to deal with the Wal-Mart problem, and it opens another can of worms. Let’s hope this goes to the Supreme Court and gets rid of the eminent domain abuse once and for all.

“Actually, it is a little disturbing that 300 forced their will on the rest of the 19,188 to deny them choices.”

Not exactly mate. If none of the other 19,188 people started a lobby to welcome wal-mart, then they lost their opportunity to speak in favour of it. The people speaking against wal-mart had the same opportunity to speak as those who could, but didn’t, speak for wal-mart. If none spoke for it, it is reasonable to assume none of them cared enough to take the time to express their opinion about it. This complacence cannot be mistaken for oppression.
Further, these people have their own opinions. If they wanted a wal-mart, they would have said so. Don’t assume that the people that didn’t speak out are too helpless to help themselves.

“But more disturbing is the precedent that this abuse of “eminent domain” represents: the government robbing from private interests to serve other private interests who are quite wealthy.”
The rights that exist today exist because these are the rights that the people have been given by the government. Exercising a right is hardly abuse. Want to change it? Don’t rely on the supreme court. Get elected in congress and change the law yourself. If you’ve got a popular view, you won’t fail.

“I’m open to the idea as long as the decision is left to the workers. Let each worker choose. “
A noble statement. If the real-life wal-mart gave workers the same rights, you’d have some ground to stand on.

It is amazing how little coherent can say in such a large space.
He writes nothing but mumble jumble.

“The rights that exist today exist because these are the rights that the people have been given by the government”

Canada’s a different country. Apparently, basic rights there are a gift from the rulers. In the United States, basic rights are something inalienable; something that the government can’t take away.

“Further, these people have their own opinions. If they wanted a wal-mart, they would have said so.”

It’s kind of a new thing: the idea that any time anyone wants to open a business, that it has to be put up to a vote.  What’s so bad about putting whether or not people want it to the test? Let it open. If nobody wants it, it will fail.

“Exercising a right is hardly abuse”

So, you don’t think that the numerous instances of government stealing real estate to give to private developers are an abuse? Again, you seem to be of the viewpoint that the only people that have rights are the rulers. That’s really regressive, and fits in with the idea that the people are there to serve the government, rather than the other way around.

OK...Let’s USE YOUR LOGIC COHERENT

Let me know where you live!  I want to come to your “backyard” and open a hog slaughtering plant and a hide tanning plant.  Have you ever been downwind of either of these on an 80 or 90 degree day?

Using your logic...I should be allowed to build it.  If nobody wants my products, I will fail.  Then your community will be left with an empty, smelly, used hog slaughtering facility.

This pretty well sums up the way Wal-Mart abandons its “dark stores” around this country.  Let somebody else clean up the mess.... Right?

You also state: “It’s kind of a new thing: the idea that any time anyone wants to open a business, that it has to be put up to a vote.” A “new thing?” You mean the concept of people having some control over what gets built in their community is a “new thing?”

NO....I’ll tell you what a new thing is:  It’s Wal-Mart’s perfected tactic of coming into smaller communities where there are usually part-time mayors and partime city council members.  They make all sorts of promises regarding “tax relief,” “good jobs” and all the other things that “good corporate citizens” do.  Then, to be sure that Wal-Mart gets its way, they typically pit one small town against another and watch them fight likes dogs over an old bone.  These small communties are NO MATCH for Wal-Mart’s lawyers and developers.  Lately Wal-Mart has been securing pre-annexation agreements before the first vote of annexation (if one is required) even comes before the full city council.  Then the citizens are invited to this “open meeting” and allowed to express their concerns, but by then it’s too late...the deal is a foregone conclusion.  I’ve seen this happen more than a few times.  Now this is “kind of a new thing” Coherent.

I’m surprised that you are so surprised at the concept of letting the citizens decide what is best for their community!

And please Coherent....don’t go talking about “inalienable rights,” unless you know what you are talking about.  Do you consider good health to be an “inalienable right?” How about pay, Coherent...do you believe in a “Living wage?” We’ve been down this path once or twice before on this blog.

Lastly Coherent… Do you know of any Baptist churches that have been infiltrating Wal-Mart and harassing the “associates?” NO...trying to organize Wal-Mart workers IS NOT the “same sort of thing.” Nice try!

Coherent looks like you have lost this one just like WM did.  You and WM better start finding some new arguments because it looks like you are not going to be able to mouth the same old thing any longer without getting called on it! 

WM must maintain new store openings or they will hemorrhage on the market and this action by this town has taken the fight to WM on a whole new level.  By the way Coherent if you have some stock this would be a good time to dump it!

The people have spoken, Walmart is dead in Hercules: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/24/BAGM8J15531.DTL

To answer some of the questions and arguments raised by your other contributors.

Hercules had a vote and decided by 97% that it did not want any large box stores.

Hercules citizens participated in various town-hall meeting and work group to prepare and finalize our developement plan. This plan was then approved by the majority of Hercules residents. The plan that walmart has decided does not apply to them.

There are three walmarts already in business within a ten mile radius.

In some towns across the US there is only Walmart, NOW, here we have a variety of shopping both high end and discount.....we want to keep it that way.

walmart is not wanted not because it is walmart but because it does not fit our vision for our city. walmart by threatening Hercules with litigation if it did not get it’s way...hmmmm not sure where you are from but I was raised to be a GOOD NEIGHBOR

Hercules resident

YOU GO FOR IT!! I can not stand Wal-Mart!! I am a teacher and I would sleep better if I knew that my students were not going to end up as checkers at Wal -Mart because they employ more people than the whole population of more than half our states put together. We don’t educate thinkers anymore we educate checkers and burger flippers. You stick to your guns! Deirdre Washburn

You got it J Burdine in Hercules!

Apparently Wal-Mart’s often-stated intention to be the “good corporate citizen” only applies if it gets its way!

Keep up the great fight!

Being an escapee from Marin County , the land of not in my back yard I have a good chuckle, being that the long time resident of Hercules that now the happy member of a bedroom community of San Francisco with people with lot money, expensive home and car in shove in there faces who work and live Hercules all there lives. So the wantabe Sausalito-Tiburon type on their way from San Francisco or where ever will stop at the big boxes in other towns to pick up what they need rather than to shop at the local stores,. Not selection and more expensive that the big box stores.. So when you see your friends and neighbor carrying bags marked with K-Mart, Home Depot, Safeway and other chain stores into their homes, I think you will see my point.

Hercules is hardly a boutique town, I guess you’ve never been to the East Bay.  Living in Marin has permanently distorted your view.  Keep heading north, Oregon is only a short drive away.

J Burdine in Hercules, CA

There was no vote You couldn’t get 97% pf a large group of Amercians to agree on anything.  A town hall meeting may have been held, but certainly thre was no vote by the general poulation.

Your story is not even good fiction.

WRONG AGAIN, PAUL!

You say: “You couldn’t get 97% of a large group of Amercians to agree on anything.”

Out of more than 47,000 votes cast in an online survey, 97% of the respondents did in fact agree that Jeffrey Skilling and Ken Lay got a fair trial and deserve to go to prison!

GO HERCULES!!

You can beat this monster. We did it in SE Chandler. It takes persistence. Let them take the city to court - we beat them. There’s no reason for a huge store like this to come into a beautiful location like the end of John Muir. Keep fighting!!!

I have lived in Hercules since 1990. We have always protected our open area’s, and looked carefully at the changes / growth we want. Until recently there was only about 8k people in Hercules, we did not want development until we could agree on a plan....once that plan was agreed to, we began the implementation. Hercules does not have a lot of businesses, this is not unusual in a bedroom community. Our infrastructre will not support, nor do we want a lot of traffic. What we want is a community where our kids can go to the park and play, where we know everyone on our street. Our town is growing but it is growing the way we the people want it to, and you know a lot of folks agree with us since our population has more than double in the 5 or six years....due to planned development.

We do not want a walmart, it’s that simple.

need I say more?

Where you at Coherent, cat got your tongue?  That’s right WM ‘s been pushing folks around for years and now it is the beginning of payback time!

Nice to see WM’s friends at Banc of America could provide a little diversion from this subject, way to prop up the stock price!

I think I’ll stay out the the catfight about what the people of Hercules want. If they don’t want a Wal-Mart, that’s their loss.

The issue here, has less to do with the herculean victory (Pardon the weak pun; I couldn’t resist.) of a small town over the mighty Wal-Mart (though that is good for WMW morale) than the issues that coherent and others raise - eminent domain and whether it is right to use government to restrict businesses as Hercules has.

I got the idea from a previous blog thread that most WMWers and WMW itself were opposed to eminent domain. Something isn’t right here. I expect this kind of duplicity from WMW, but not necessarily from WMWers. What do you people really believe? Is the use of eminent domain right or not? Perhaps it is only right when it is used to fight Wal-Mart?

Legislating commerce seems to be an area of agreement among WMWers. According to my Radcon handbook you are all “liberals” and despise the free market, so I would expect you to support it.

I tend to agree with coherent that if a store is unwanted it will fail. However, this probably wouldn’t happen. Perhaps I have too little faith in people, but I imagine that most people in areas like this would readily abandon their “principles” to save a few bucks. An empty cookie jar makes it easy to avoid the cookies, but a when the jar is full…

Screwed-

Long time, no see. I hope life is treating you well.

“This pretty well sums up the way Wal-Mart abandons its “dark stores” around this country.  Let somebody else clean up the mess.... Right?”

You raise a good point. If a store fails, there is a mess. It becomes a total waste of land.

“Lastly Coherent… Do you know of any Baptist churches that have been infiltrating Wal-Mart and harassing the “associates?” NO...trying to organize Wal-Mart workers IS NOT the “same sort of thing.” Nice try!”

It is the same sort of thing. Unions are a like cancer to the companies they infiltrate. Wal-Mart is right to want to keep them out.

And WalMart is a cancer that has spread all across the world!  It is not been until the last couple years that we have had the knowledge to fight it and sometimes like in Hercules even beat it!  But now that we know we can, it will only be beaten more and more!

If they build a WalMart and the citizens are mad, there are ways to retaliate.  Just walk in and go into a restroom stall and drop a bunch of cockroach eggs.  Do this numerous times until there’s an uncontrollable infestation.

Someone: you have a point, about eminent domain....and the abuses it could generate.

What is the law but a tool, that helps a society manage it’s commerce, between businesses, between people and also people vs business.

So we look at a specific case, Hercules vs walmart.

What actually happened here. first walmart through the owner of the land tried to get approval to put a store in, that attempt failed due to a developement plan. Then walmart purchased the land and tried again to put in a store, that also failed due to a developement plan. Hercules then tried to purchase the land from walmart, as NOW the developement plan was on hold due to walmart’s ownership. walmart refused to sell the land more than once. Hercules explained to walmart they did not meet our plan, please go away (sell us the land) so we can proceed. walmart refused to sell the land again.

Now back to the law, walmart is holding our plan hostage as a card to get what it wants, Hercules must seek some legal redress....as gunfights in the OK corral are now frowned upon.  The tool used may have not been the best, but Hercules needs to do something Right?

We are not naive, we know that walmart will probably try to fight the condemation, but at least walmart knows Hercules is not a blushing bride, and we are going to make an issue of this until we can go on with our plan.

Again eminent domain is not an easy tool to use, so it should be used with great reserve. But hey, blackmail and extortion are not new tactics in the conflict between big business and the little guy. You can be sure we would have rather just purchase the land and gone on with our business...!

<h1>Awsome site !! keep up the good work. really liked it .
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Alan Jackson Review |
ARctic monkeys Review |
Fall out Boy Review |
Bob dylan Review |
Michael Buble Review |
Sheryl Crow Review |
Avenged sevenfold Review |
Brooks and dunn Review |
George Michael Review |
Joe satriani Review |
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Alkaline Trio Review |
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RAscal Flatts Review |
All american Rejects Review |
Angels and Airwaves Review |
Aretha Franklin Review |
Barbra streisand Review |
Ben Harper Review |
Celine Dion Review |
George Strait Review |
Gretchen wilson Review |
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Kelly Clarkson Review |
Lynyrd skynyrd Review |
Mindless self indulgence Review |
Pearl Jam Review |
Red Hot chilli pepper tickets Review |
THe Fray Review |
Alice in Chains Review
American Idol Review |
Anthony Hamilton Review |
Ashlee Simpson Review |
Barry Manilow Review |
Black Eyed Peas Review|
Brad Paisley Review |
Dave Matthews BandReview |
Elton John Review |
Gavin De Graw Review |
Godsmack Review |
Guns N Roses Review |
Jimmy Buffett Review |
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<h1>Awsome site !! keep up the good work. really liked it .
check out concert artist Review site, it has music artist review along with dates of concerts in future. James Blunt Review
Death Cab For cutie Review
ALice cooper Review
fiona Apple Review |
Panic at the DiscoReview |
Beach Boys Review |
Goo Goo dolls Review |
Alan Jackson Review |
ARctic monkeys Review |
Fall out Boy Review |
Bob dylan Review |
Michael Buble Review |
Sheryl Crow Review |
Avenged sevenfold Review |
Brooks and dunn Review |
George Michael Review |
Joe satriani Review |
Andrea Bocelli Review |
Alkaline Trio Review |
Kid rockReview |
RAscal Flatts Review |
All american Rejects Review |
Angels and Airwaves Review |
Aretha Franklin Review |
Barbra streisand Review |
Ben Harper Review |
Celine Dion Review |
George Strait Review |
Gretchen wilson Review |
James Brown Review |
Kelly Clarkson Review |
Lynyrd skynyrd Review |
Mindless self indulgence Review |
Pearl Jam Review |
Red Hot chilli pepper tickets Review |
THe Fray Review |
Alice in Chains Review
American Idol Review |
Anthony Hamilton Review |
Ashlee Simpson Review |
Barry Manilow Review |
Black Eyed Peas Review|
Brad Paisley Review |
Dave Matthews BandReview |
Elton John Review |
Gavin De Graw Review |
Godsmack Review |
Guns N Roses Review |
Jimmy Buffett Review |
Kenny Chesney Review |
Madonna Review |
Ozzfest Tickets Review |
Radiohead Review |
Jon Bon jovi Review |
Depeche Mode
Shakira Review |
Willie Nelson Review |

Talking about posts being deleted by the web master, I do believe the above by “Concert Artist” should be definitely deleted as it has nothing to do with the theme of this site and is promoting something of another agenda.

Since it is not on “Target”—remove it.
Just my opinion.

me and my family shop wal-mart because we are on a budget and we can get are cloths and food there and these people that say they do not want wal-mart here are stupid. and the people that say they don’t want it don’t shop in hercules at all they go out side the city to shop

We are battling Wal-Mart in our little town. We have designed a website/forum to discuss this matter. Please post on this forum if anyone has any helpful ideas. We know Wal-Mart and town politicians view it also.

thanks

www.rotterdamny.info