Site Fight Of The Week: Tupper Lake, NY

I know the area in Tupper Lake where the Mayor wants Wal-Mart to go. Presently it is the Jarden factory, the only factory in the area. They make plastic silverware, forks, spoons, knives, etc. The factory sits on approximately 15 acres of land. This factory is closing as of May 18. Why? Because they are having too much competition from product manufactured overseas! Isn’t it funny that now the local Mayor wants to invite in one of the very companies that caused Jarden to go out of business?! For those pro Wal-Mart’ers, Wal-Mart sells approximately 70 to 80% of goods manufactured in China. Granted, they are not the only ones selling product manufactured overseas, but they certainly are the biggest. About 65-70 people will be out of work when Jarden closes.
The area in Tupper Lake where this factory is located is known as “The Junction.” Years ago it was a bustling business district with retail stores and restaurants. But now it is filled with empty stores, and run down homes. There is a small shopping center right next to the Jarden plant. In it is a Hacket’s department store, Kinney’s Drugs, and Save A Lot Grocery.
The main business district is in another part of Tupper Lake. There the business district looks much better, and some buildings have undergone renovations. But Tupper Lake on the whole is a depressed area.
It is my understanding that the Mayor seems to think that Wal-Mart will be good for everyone. Folks will shop Wal-Mart and also shop local stores. But nothing is further from the truth. Wal-Mart gets ALL THE BUSINESS. Small independent stores are no match for Wal-Mart.
The Adirondacks is filled with woods, trees, and plenty of wild forest preserve.  Tupper Lake folks certainly deserve much better than an ugly gray and blue building and an empty business district, which is what they will get if the Mayor has his way and gets Wal-Mart to come.
Wal-Mart hasn’t been heard from yet, so who knows? On the other hand, if they were to arrive they certainly wouldn’t announce their arrival as doing so would bring out the opposition! It will be interesting to see what develops.

By the way I get a laugh when the Mayor talks about Wal-Mart being able to draw from a 40 mile radius! Tupper Lake has a population of slightly under 5,000 people. Lake Placid, about 30 to 40 minutes away has a population of just under 3,000. Saranac Lake has a population of about 5,000. Going past Tupper Lake you come to Piercefield, Conifer, Childwald, ALL SMALL VILLAGES! If you go further down on Route 3 you run into forest preserve for at least 1 hour! Hardly anyone lives there.
Going from Lake Placid you come to Keene, Keene Valley and other small towns. You have to drive about 1 hour on Route 86 before you come to the Northway which is considered interstate up here.
I expect if Wal-Mart ever hits Tupper Lake it will be gone in less than 5 years. We don’t have the population to support a large store. People are not moving here, they are LEAVING HERE. The popuation of all 3 towns has decreased over the years. Wal-Mart in the Adirondacks over the long haul? Not possible!

Our duty to ourselves, to posterity, and to mankind, call on us by every motive which is sacred or honorable, to watch over the safety of our beloved country..."--Thomas Jefferson

Even kids come to fight Wal-Mart
East end worries about loss of good jobs

Peter Kuitenbrouwer, National Post
Published: Thursday, May 22, 2008

“People from the neighbourhood wore black T-Shirts with the slogan “Good Jobs Matter,” which the coalition was selling for $20 each. They say they prefer film jobs or other high-paying work to Wal-Mart jobs on the site. Toronto Film Studios is leaving the spot at the end of the year to go to the new Film Port in the port; Wal-Mart is the usual anchor tenant for Smart!Centres”

To read this news article click below:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=530537&p=2

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

“they certainly wouldn’t announce their arrival”

You Got That Right, Jane!

Here’s the way it works, Jane....  Keep your eye on Mayor Mickey Desmarais.  The first thing he’ll do is make sure the city or town council is stacked with members who share his point of view.  These individuals have to be contacted early and often, since they are the one’s who have to live in the community long after the “suits from Bentonville” have flown back home.

If Wal-Mart takes the mayor up on his request, contact the local Planning Board (if one even exists) and find out who the developer would be for this project.

Long before the “news” of Wal-mart coming to the area, you can be assured that Wal-Mart will be quietly working “behind the scenes” with the developer, the DNR, traffic and engineering as well as the mayor and members of the local governing body who are in favor of the project.  This will be kept as quiet as possible.  Also...don’t expect to get much help or support from the local paper(s) or other media.  They will all be dancing with glee as they anticipate all that future advertising revenue from Wal-mart.

By the time a notice goes out to the general public about a “public or open meeting” on the project, Wal-Mart will send in their Advance Team, along with their “razzle dazzle” 3-D animated presentation showing the residents how the “completed” Wal-Mart Store will look!

Wal-Mart’s been through this process so many times...they know the objections local citizens or groups may have long before the first shovel of dirt is turned!

Don’t bother wasting time on “educating” or convincing people in the community about the negatives a Wal-Mart would bring to the community. Most people are dumber than sheep...they’re lemmings!  Wal-Mart knows this all too well, and has long operated from the belief, “If we build it, they will come.

Keep your eye on those that all of a sudden are driving very high priced cars, new homes ,boats,etc.  MONEY TALKS.

big deal jane all the places you shop at sell the same percentage of items from china too and that dont stop you from shopping at these places.you are a big time hypocrit.ok for my favorites and i am quiet but walmart does it i raise hell.

jane what you and screwed by are too dumb and stupid to realize is its all about competetion.why dont you ever bitch and whine about save a lots similar prices hurting the economy and dumbing everything down and hurting everyone else?you are a dumb sob screwed by and cant back up a dam thing you say on here.

“dumbing everything down”

That’s your specialty m att hew vantress.

Someone slip some Benedryl in matthew’s Kool Aid and maybe he’ll take a nap.

...mayor and village board of trustees, to do anything that we can to ensure an efficient, timely and successful achievement of your goal.”

I wonder how many of the local businesses got that kind of committment before starting up? Wal-Mart doesn’t compete with existing business, it crushes it through the use of size, power, and an playing field tipped in Bentonville’s favor.

“Capitalism needs to function like a game of tug-of-war. Two opposing sides need to continually struggle for dominance, but at no time can either side be permitted to walk away with the rope.” ~ Pete Holiday

Scredby and any other anti-Wal-Mart’ers:

There is already a developer interested in this project. They are Nigro developers based out of Albany. They were involved in some controversial Target and Home Depot projects. They were fined by the Department of Envirironmental Conservation (DEC) for water pollution.
One area legislator has already been quoted as “I wouldn’t say a shopping center. What I’ve been told is a commercial enterprise. I have not heart the name Wal-Mart or anything like that, but this is a huge piece of land, so you’ve got to think big.”
Yes, we do have local planning boards here. In fact in 1993 the local planning board for Lake Placid felt they were going to be lead agency in the permit process. What they didn’t count on was the Adirondack Park Agency or APA here. The APA controls all large developements. The APA ended up with jurisdiction over the Placid Wal-Mart simply because the building was over 40 feet in height. Wal-Mart not wanting the APA in control IMMEDIATELY scaled down their building to 80,000 square feet almost overnight. Originally it was to be something over 100,000 square feet.
Well, to make a long story short, the permit process went back to Placid’s planning board. We had a newly elected town supervisor who DID NOT reappoint the head of the planning board to his position when it expired. The planning board head at the time wanted Wal-Mart. Instead she appointed someone already on the board who DID NOT want Wal-Mart. The vote went down in January of 1996. It was 4 against and 1 for. Wal-Mart challenged it in court and lost twice.
Well, about 2 years ago Wal-Mart began looking at our town. This was all due to one supervisor over in Essex County. I was at the village board meeting when the news hit. Apparently, Cliff SINGLE HANDLEDLY approached Wal-Mart and brought them to our village. He personally took them around showing them appropriate property they could build on. Well--opposition formed immediately. We had a village election coming up, and we ended up electing 3 Democrats who STOPPED THE REZONG PROCESS on the land Wal-Mart needed.
In the process of all this everyone here received a SLICK and I mean slick, glossy, flyer from Wal-Mart promoting the benefits we would all get if we had them here. The building was shown with an “Adirondack” woodsy type look, etc. But the opposition wasn’t fooled. Unfortunately, Wal-Mart split the town. Many who wanted it are now boycotting local businesses. Angry letters appreared in the Adirondack Enterprise. It wasn’t pretty.
Tupper Lake is the last town here. Everything else here is much too small and the APA would never allow a building of that size anyway. Some in Tupper Lake want the Wal-Mart, but there are some who don’t. I am not holding my breath here. Wal-Mart has tried since 1993 to get in here. The nearest Wal-Mart is in Plattsburgh 1 hour away. They want in here--but it will remain to be seen if they get here.

“This will be kept as quiet as possible.”

Sounds like people already know about it, so it can’t be kept that QUIET!!

“Mayor Desmarais sent a letter to Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott urging the company”

Sounds like the city is courting Wal-Mart, not the other way around!!

“Long before the “news” of Wal-mart coming to the area, you can be assured that Wal-Mart will be quietly working “behind the scenes” with the developer, the DNR, traffic and engineering as well as the mayor and members of the local governing body who are in favor of the project.”

That is known as a ‘feasibility study’, standard practice of ANY business!!

“We had a newly elected town supervisor who DID NOT reappoint the head of the planning board to his position when it expired. The planning board head at the time wanted Wal-Mart. Instead she appointed someone already on the board who DID NOT want Wal-Mart.”

And, it has been stated in the past, that Wal-Mart packs the planning boards, this sounds like the opposition group is packing it!!

“Most people are dumber than sheep...they’re lemmings!”

Translation = Most people aren’t as smart as I am (Screwedby)!!

“Many who wanted it are now boycotting local businesses.”

Isn’t it strange, how if the anti people “Protest”, that is ‘great’, but, when the pro-side “Protests”, it becomes, “Unfortunately, Wal-Mart split the town......Angry letters appreared....It wasn’t pretty.” and “Most people are dumber than sheep...they’re lemmings!”, (If they don’t agree with us)!!

Does anyone see now, how these ANTI people work?  If you agree with them, you are SMART, but, if you disagree, you are “DUMBER THAN SHEEP”!!

I have to laugh when I come on this board and see you people slamming walmart, patting each other on the back, telling yourselves how right you are about things, how “need” is more important than ability, keeping cozy in the imagened comfort of your own ignorance ... and meanwhile Walmart stock rises and rises. I just laugh and laugh.
Jane even points out that “people are leaving” upstate New York - why?? because it can’t sustain high-paying, minimally skilled jobs - there just isn’t enough money. And when a company tries to come in and actually save people money, you attack it for not providing these same high-paying jobs and quote some socialist academic that said that it “hurts” communities. (Ironic that this all happened BEFORE walmart has even moved in, huh?? - has anyone thought of that?) And Alex likes to point of that “good jobs matter” - but who’s going to pay for them?? Who’s going to provide them?? Do you have a “right” to a good, high-paying job?? and get this, he points out that “even kids come to fight walmart” - are you serious?? Do you think that I put the slightest stock in something a teenager, or worse still, a child, has to say?? It’s pure emotion and brainwashing. The time is over when you freeloaders and moochers can expect the average citizen to subsidize your way through life.

I know how you guys think, because I used to think that way - you want to get some easy, low-stress job which doesn’t require any training or real skill, and get a fancy wage and benefits package, and just cruise though life off the backs of other people’s money. Hey, your parents and grandparents did it for years at the big 3, right?? If someone tries to take it away from you or somehow point out that it’s illogical to give people more than the value of the work they provide, you cry foul - “how could you be so selfish, after all I’ve got a house and kids to feed” using emotional arguments to assail your opponents into submission. Go ahead, people. Keep living a lie, keep ignoring the truth - the world will not support your kind - it CANNOT support your kind. Go ahead and blame walmart if it makes you feel better, if it eases your pain. Walmart is not the problem - YOU are the problem.

June 26, 2007 | EPI Issue Brief #235

The Wal-Mart effect
Its Chinese imports have displaced nearly 200,000 U.S. jobs

by Robert E. Scott

China’s entry into the World Trade Organization (WTO) was supposed to improve the U.S. trade deficit with China and create good jobs in the United States. But those promises have gone unfulfilled: the total U.S. trade deficit with China reached $235 billion in 2006. Between 2001 and 2006, this growing deficit eliminated 1.8 million U.S. jobs (Scott 2007). The world’s biggest retailer, U.S.-based Wal-Mart was responsible for $27 billion in U.S. imports from China in 2006 and 11% of the growth of the total U.S. trade deficit with China between 2001 and 2006. Wal-Mart’s trade deficit with China alone eliminated nearly 200,000 U.S. jobs in this period.

The manufacturing sector and its workers were hardest hit by the growth of Wal-Mart’s imports. Wal-Mart’s increased trade deficit with China eliminated 133,000 manufacturing jobs, 68% of those jobs lost from Wal-Mart’s imports. Jobs in the manufacturing sector pay higher wages and provide better benefits than most other industries, especially for workers with less than a college education.

China has achieved its rapidly growing trade surpluses by purchasing more than $1 trillion in U.S. Treasury bills and other government securities over the past few years in order to artificially and illegally reduce the value of its currency and thereby lower the cost of its exports to the United States and other countries. ~~~~~~~~~ John,is your frame of reference no larger than the dimesions of a WalMart shopping cart?

It seems pro Wal-Mart’ers just never get it. They want their “cheap” goods and that’s it. But have they ever stopped to look at what is left of a business district? Ticonderoga, abut 1/12 to 2 hours away is a ghost town. The local policicians wanted the Wal-Mart. Well, the opposition wasn’t enough, well organized, whatever. Anyway Ticonderoga has their Wal-Mart. On a Saturday afternoon when it should be filled with customers--it is empty. Everybody drives to Glens Falls where the Wal-Mart there is cheaper.
I understand this Wal-Mart is empty most of the time. Ticonderoga doesn’t have enough population to support a supercenter. And Wal-Mart got help to build it. They asked for a “pilot” or payment in lieu of taxes. Their taxes will rise “gradually” over a ten period of time. So Wal-Mart won’t be paying their fair share of taxes on their property until 10 years have gone by! THIS IS CORPORATE WELFARE AT ITS BEST.
When you drive through what used to be Ticonderoga’s business district you will have no problem parking. There are lots of spaces. In fact you could have a football game down main street with no problem just about any time you wanted. And the local politicians are still so thrilled at what Wal-Mart has done for the town! Most of us suspect they must be blind not to see what they have lost.
There is also a Wal-Mart in Malone an hour away from me and another one in Plattsburgh. Plattsburgh is a large city with shopping malls and stores galore. In fact they will soon be getting a Target. Target is building right now. Opening date is October of this year. Plattsburgh has seen some changes since Wal-Mart moved in, but they are harder to see. Yes, they lost their small business district, but that happened years ago when the got a large mall.
But Malone is another story. Malone has also lost what businesses they had. Their business district is also many empty stores, a few restaurants, an eye doctor, accountant, etc. But there is little else there. And what they do have is being built on the edge of the town limits. Businesses that do that pay only county taxes--not village taxes.
Wal-Mart has effectively destroyed Ticonderoga and Malone. And they would destroy us if we let them. You pro Wal-Mart’ers can keep your cheap goods. When a small town way of life is gone--it is lost forever. Wal-Mart is not the beginning of competition is is the end of it.

For a little info on the earlier post re: U.S trade deficit and U.S. job loss and the EPI:~~~~~~~~~~When was EPI established, and why?
EPI was established in 1986 to broaden the discussion about economic policy to include the interests of low- and middle-income workers. Today, with global competition expanding, wage inequality rising, and the methods and nature of work changing in fundamental ways, it is as crucial as ever that people who work for a living have a voice in the economic debate.

Who founded EPI?
EPI was founded by a group of economic policy experts that includes Jeff Faux, EPI’s first president; economist Barry Bluestone of Northeastern University; Robert Kuttner, columnist for Business Week and Newsweek and editor of The American Prospect; Ray Marshall, former U.S. Secretary of Labor and professor at the LBJ School of Public Affairs, University of Texas-Austin; Robert Reich, former U.S. secretary of labor and professor at Brandeis University; and economist Lester Thurow of the MIT Sloan School of Management.

What makes EPI unique?
EPI was the first — and remains the premier — organization to focus on the economic condition of low- and middle-income Americans and their families. Furthermore, it adheres to strict standards of sound, objective research and analysis, and couples its findings with outreach and popular education. (Incidentally,the entire report including charts and graph is available on the EPI website.)~~~~~~~~~~

BTW: Just for the record,EPI is Economic Policy Institute.

jane where are folks like you moaning and groaning about your favorite stores like save a lot and etc similar low prices compared to wms hurting everything.the same cheap goods from china and etc are sold at stores you regularly shop at jane so shut your mouth.pro walmarters like me do get it jane .unlike you we are smart enough to see through all the ufcw union and wmw b.s. and lies unlike you on here.i have previous ufcw union grocery and retail exp jane unlike you too.govt statsane lie all the time.walmart dont destroy anything jane.i notice jane you are not bitching and whining about the target store being built and the increased traffic that store will bring and how target will take business away from everyone else including your favorites.walmart pays better than target too jane.

John Edwards,

Great post, thanks for telling it like it is!!

ddrb,

“Just for the record,EPI is Economic Policy Institute.”

If Robert Reich, former U.S. secretary of labor, is in this group, it proves that they are bogus in their findings, that little runt, has some screwy ideas about things!!

Come to think about it, how come Robert Reich didn’t prosecute Wal-Mart for illegal union busting practices, when HE was the Secretary of Labor, under Clinton?  Maybe, Wal-Mart is not really doing ILLEGAL things, only things the unions don’t like, that keep them from getting their hands on all that ‘dues’ money!!

RDS: I don’t know ,RDS,why don’t you tell us? According to your associates, the Clinton years were the years where there was an explosion in the number of WalMarts built!

“that little runt, has some screwy ideas about things!!”

That’s hillarious coming from you RDS!  Do you have any idea how your remark fits you?

HE IS A LITTLE RUNT IN MIND AND BODY. HAAA HAAAAA.

“HE IS A LITTLE RUNT IN MIND AND BODY.”

I assume you are referring to RDS, Lucid!

you are a total moron screwed by and a pathetic pile of crap

YES I’m Talking About RDS!

Screwedby,

All your insults, still doesn’t answer the question as to WHY Wal-Mart didn’t get unionized while Robert Reich was the Secretary of Labor, if the employees wanted it, and it is the Bush Administration that is stopping it now?  Wouldn’t he have taken Wal-Mart to court for labor law violations if what they were doing was illegal?

There is a PBS special about the Adirondacks airing now in various locales.

Here’s a link to their web page:
http://www.pbs.org/theadirondacks/

The program is also out on a DVD. If people who have never visited the area want to get an idea of what makes it so unique watching will explain a lot. It’s also filled with lots of pretty pictures…

As for the depopulation of small towns in the region, this is not a local phenomenon. It is happening in many parts of the country. There are several reasons, but the most important have to do with the transition away from natural resource based economies and the loss of small, specialized manufacturing. The Adirondacks and much of New England depended upon lumber during the high growth period of the 19th and early 20th Centuries. When the forest were depleted and turned into parks the population moved away.

In addition many young people don’t want to live is such small communities anymore. They want to go where the “buzz” is. This is a worldwide trend, cities are getting bigger and the countryside is losing population.

In the olden days when transportation was difficult small communities had limited shopping and people would come from far and wide for the weekly market day in a central location. Perhaps we will see more of this happening as gas prices rise.

I don’t see why a small community would need a big box store. As long as one can get fresh meat, bread and dairy during the week, a trip to a big box store can be a once a week, or even once a month event. It seems many people go shopping more often because they are bored and don’t know what to do with themselves.

It’s time to revive a sense of local community. Turn off the tube and meet your neighbors, or just go for a walk.

rdf: Welcome back,and well said. Happy Memorial Day.

Jane -

I live in Malone. Wal-Mart was a major plus for the town and surrounding area. It forced K-Mart to lower their prices and Price Chopper to start offering to double coupons. You obviously don’t know Malone and don’t know what you’re talking about. Since Wal-Mart arrived, 16 new businesses have come to town. And all the “competitors” of Wal-Mart will tell you having them come in was great because it brought shoppers to the area.

Destroyed Malone ? I don’t think so.

Matt

Matt:

This is what makes the story of Walmart so complex. It can do both beneficial and terrible things at the same time. Their original business model emphasized the beneficial things: wide selection, low prices and increased competition.

This weeded out weak stores, especially those that survived only because they overcharged. This business model was replaced gradually after Sam Walton died.

The new model emphasizes maximizing earnings for the benefit of the Walton family. The fact that there may be some increased competition and lower prices in a community is sort of a byproduct. Driving out local businesses has become a game for some of the Walmart development staff. So in the case of Malone the extra competition may have forced other stores to shape up.

In addition the increased traffic may have also created an opportunity for new stores to open as well. What needs to be looked at is the impact on surrounding communities. As the mayor of Tupper Lake said explicitly he is hoping to attract shoppers from other towns. In other words he doesn’t care if other places see their local businesses fail as long as his town does better.

In fact it is part of Walmart’s standard development strategy to set one town against another and see which will offer the best deal in terms of tax breaks and free infrastructure enhancements. The Walmart team makes this quite plain in their presentations to town fathers: “If you don’t give us what we want we will open up across the town line and suck all the business out of your Main Street”.

What’s needed is for better enforcement of existing laws, restrictions on the ability of firms to make special deals with communities and control of monopoly power.

There have been several cases of outright bribes being uncovered in development schemes and this should be examined closely whenever a politician suddenly develops a passion for a big new project. Usually the bribes are indirect. A sale of land at an inflated price, or some compensation to a family member through a third party, or the like. It takes a dedicated reporter pouring over county land records to uncover these types of deals.

rdf: Has anybody researched the history of Hearne,Texas?

robertdfeinman,

“In the olden days when transportation was difficult small communities had limited shopping and people would come from far and wide for the weekly market day in a central location. Perhaps we will see more of this happening as gas prices rise.”

Wouldn’t a Wal-Mart store serve well, as that ‘central location’?

“This weeded out weak stores, especially those that survived only because they overcharged....The fact that there may be some increased competition and lower prices in a community is sort of a byproduct....the extra competition may have forced other stores to shape up....In addition the increased traffic may have also created an opportunity for new stores to open as well.”

Aren’t all of these things “GOOD” for both customers and the community?

“as long as his town does better.”

Isn’t that the job of a Mayor, to have YOUR town do better and the Mayors of the other towns take care of their towns?

“The Walmart team makes this quite plain in their presentations to town fathers: “If you don’t give us what we want we will open up across the town line and suck all the business out of your Main Street”.”

This statement sounds rather strange to me!!  If Wal-Mart destroys local stores, why would the town want them?  But, if the store went to the next town, why would it suck all the business from the main street of the town that didn’t get it?  My question is:  Why would both towns WANT to lose businesses, by fighting over who gets the Wal-Mart store?  I know, if I didn’t want to shop at Wal-Mart, I sure wouldn’t quit my local stores and drive to the next town over, to shop at a store, I didn’t want to shop at in the first place!!

“restrictions on the ability of firms to make special deals with communities”

I don’t agree with this one, everyone should have the right to bargain with others!!  But, that doesn’t mean that the other side has to accept your bargain position!!  Just like if I wanted to buy your house, you can set a price, and I can make a counter offer, but while I don’t have to pay your price, you don’t have to take my offer!!  Likewise, if your neighbor is willing to take my offer for his house, you don’t have the right to say I must take your deal, because your house was the one I looked at first!!

hey moron ken how does walmart hurt everyone else including the mom and pops when walmart has no control at all over what the others charge for what they sell.?if these other places are too dam lazy and reluctant to lower their prices and be competetive then thats their own dam fault if they go out of business not walmarts.its all about competetion ken thats what you are too dumb and stupid to understand pal.people shop where they can afford to and 4 crybabies like ken,screwed by,ddrb,jane and etc childish consistent whining about wm never stops anyone from shopping there.ever notice that?its the same bunch of idiots on here who are so full of b.s in what they say who regularly post on here.

I just don’t understand willful ignorance. What keeps people from learning anything about how the real world works and inspires them to repeat the same mindless arguments time and again?

This type of behavior is usually restricted to matters of religion where strong adherents of one group cannot accept the premises of another. If they truly believe that their immortal soul is at stake then at least this provides a motivation for this type of mindset.

But, supporting Walmart, even when it engages in illegal activities makes no sense. I suppose to some libertarianism this takes on some near religious aspects. Beliefs about how markets function, or the psychology of the rational consumer or the need for absolute “freedom” are accepted without question and must be defended blindly.

Either that or we have paid shills in our midst. How impoverished someone’s life must be that defending a giant corporation which doesn’t give a fig about their well-being becomes a personal crusade.

Once again for the slow readers.

1. Walmart breaks the law

2. Walmart extorts favors from weak local communities

3. Walmart mistreats its employees and suppliers

4. The money that Walmart makes from doing these things ends up in the pockets of some of the richest people on the planet. Isn’t $100 billion enough for them?

5. Walmart forces down prices when it opens in competitive markets for as long as the competition exists. As with all capitalist firms, the aim is to eliminate competition so that prices can be raised at will. That’s why prices at nearby Walmart stores differ. Those with competition charge less.

6. Local communities have the right to determine what sort of development they wish to have. That’s why they have elected officials and zoning boards. It’s called democracy. The alternative is not “freedom”, it anarchy.

7. No, mayors in town A don’t have an obligation to destroy town B for their own town’s benefit. In most cases such plans backfire anyway. The weaker town sees a rise in social deterioration and the malcontents drift over to the more prosperous town where opportunities for mischief are greater.

8. Larger geographic entities (such as counties) understand these issues, which is why the better run ones have regional planning boards in addition to town planning. The Adirondacks has such a group for the entire region.

9. Despite their promotion of the ideology of their heroes (Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Hayek, etc), there has never been a society run on libertarian principles and there never will. It’s just utopian twaddle and the big money that supports it (see Charles Koch, for example) do so because the libertarians are useful idiots who provide some seemingly logical arguments for why the rich deserve their wealth. Meanwhile the rich install a plutocracy.

“useful idiots”

Even on his best days, RDS is anything but “useful.”

robertdfeinman,

“I just don’t understand willful ignorance. What keeps people from learning anything about how the real world works and inspires them to repeat the same mindless arguments time and again?”

Then why do you keep doing it?  I thought you were smarter than to listen to the union playbook!!

“1. Walmart breaks the law”

We have courts to determine that!!

“2. Walmart extorts favors from weak local communities”

Wal-Mart takes no more than the communities are willing to give!!

“3. Walmart mistreats its employees and suppliers”

You cannont mistreat someone who has the ‘freedom’ to stop working for or supplying your business!!  Both, have the ability to say ‘bye-bye’ if the feel they are being mistreated!!

“Isn’t $100 billion enough for them?”

Are you recommending we put a CAP on how much money people can have?

“6. Local communities have the right to determine what sort of development they wish to have. That’s why they have elected officials and zoning boards. It’s called democracy.”

But, didn’t you say in your earlier post, “What’s needed is for better enforcement of existing laws, restrictions on the ability of firms to make special deals with communities and control of monopoly power.”?  How can communities have “the right to determine”, if they are restricted from making deals?

“7. No, mayors in town A don’t have an obligation to destroy town B for their own town’s benefit.”

That’s not what I said, I said each mayor has the obligation to do what’s best for his own town!!

“The weaker town sees a rise in social deterioration and the malcontents drift over to the more prosperous town where opportunities for mischief are greater.”

So, which town is the ‘more prosperous’, the one with a Wal-Mart or without Wal-Mart?

“there has never been a society run on libertarian principles and there never will.”

As Libertarian principles are based on following the Constitution, are you saying that the Constitution has NEVER been followed in this counrty and basically is a worthless piece of paper?  And, that the Constitution is nothing more than “utopian twaddle”?

“because the libertarians are useful idiots who provide some seemingly logical arguments for why the rich deserve their wealth”

So, you seem to be saying, that everyone deserves what they earn and obtain, EXCEPT the wealthy, right?  Where in your logical reasoning, do you find it REASONABLE to take something from one person and give it to another?  In the case of the LAW, that is known as Theft!!  In fact, there is also a commandment in the Bible, that says, ‘Thou shalt not steal’, isn’t there?

Steal (Theft): 1. To take from another without right or permission. 2.To take or obtain in a subtle manner. 3. The act or instance of stealing, larceny.

“It’s called democracy”

And, what you advocate, is called “Socialism” or “Communism”!!

hey robert feinman your favorite stores do worse than walmart and break more laws and rules.amazing we never hear crap from you on that proving what a total hypocrit and ass you are.hey moron walmart has no copntrol on other places prices mr feinman.you are too stupid and dumb to realize that.

walmart dont destroy anything mr feinman.the others destroy themselves with their arrogant refusal and laziness to lower their prices to be more competetive with wm and others.its all about competetion mr feinmann yet you are too stupid and dumb to to realize that.

I Think RDS Has Just Welcomed You to His “Twilight Zone” World, Robert Feinman

“are you saying that the Constitution has NEVER been followed in this counrty and basically is a worthless piece of paper?  And, that the Constitution is nothing more than “utopian twaddle”? ~RDS

Yes, that’s exactly what some people would say!

“do you find it REASONABLE to take something from one person and give it to another?

What’s the problem RDS?  Multi-national corporations like Wal-Mart and our government do this all the time!

“I said each mayor has the obligation to do what’s best for his own town!!”

We all know you were never in the military RDS.  It shows.  It also shows that you can’t be much of a sports fan either.  On any given Sunday in the fall, isn’t it the job of the coach and the team to “do what’s best” for its fans… i.e. WIN?  The object in war, sports, and business is to anihilate, dominate, crush, overwhelm, destoy and defeat your opponent.  Robert Feinman is more correct than you ever will be!  Do you think a mayor such as Mickey Desmarais considers the impact of his decision to invite a Wal-Mart into his town based on the effect it might have on a neighboring community?

“So, which town is the ‘more prosperous’, the one with a Wal-Mart or without Wal-Mart?

This is why you will never win an argument, or why RDS will never concede you a point, Mr. Feinman.  RDS equates “progress” and “prosperity” with building more Wal-Mart Supercenters.

Just like cell phone service...all you “outsiders” have it, why would you deny us the same service, AND WallMart low prices. You act like we are the highest paid Americans in the country....all we want is what you already have!

We all know you were never in the military RDS.  It shows.

Tell the rest of us about your own military service, Gen. Patton...I mean Mr. Screwed…

I see the problem, your education stopped at civics 101 in junior high school. It says in the book that when the law is broken, the bad guys get caught and prosecuted.

Unfortunately in the real world this is only partially true. Poor people and violent criminals frequently get caught and prosecuted and often get long jail sentences.

White collar criminals seldom get prosecuted and almost never go to jail. When a firm breaks the law and gets caught it promises not to do it again, while not admitting that they did anything wrong in the first place, and the firm pays a fine. The managers who planned the action suffer no consequence.

The fine is paid for by the stockholders in the form of lower earnings. In most firms stockholders are only nominal owners, management runs the company and stockholders don’t even control who gets picked for these jobs. The extent of control is that stockholders can sell their shares, that’s not control.

You have to come up with a system that works in spite of corruption, plutocracy and monopoly power. Or at least works well enough so that the vast majority of people don’t suffer unduly as a consequence. The US, currently, is not in this position. Parts of Western Europe probably are.

Similar disconnects between the ideal system taught in school and the real world exist in other areas as well. For example how much people “earn” from their capital holdings depends upon the laws of incorporation and the tax rates. Capital gains are taxed at 15%, regular income is taxed progressively up to 38%. This differences exists because the wealthy (who collect capital gains) have more influence in congress than you do.

At one time the US had a top marginal tax rate of 90%. It didn’t prevent the wealthy from being wealthy, but it tended to prevent them from continually grabbing a bigger proportion of the total pie. If you look back at that period you will find that overall economic growth was just fine and the working class was improving its standard of living.

Now we have a working class that is getting poorer and a super wealthy class that has so much money it doesn’t know what to do with it all. The “immutable” laws of economics, or a corrupt political system?

I’m sure that it must disturb libertarians to find out that they live in a world that will never even come close to civics 101, but instead of working on practical solutions, they continue to believe that some magical power will make the fairy tale come true. Just keep rubbing that magic amulet and tell me how it works out for you.

Screwedby,

“Multi-national corporations like Wal-Mart and our government do this all the time!”

In the case of Multi-national corporations, tell us how they take people’s money without permission to do so?  As for government, people give their permission, through the process of elections!!

“Do you think a mayor such as Mickey Desmarais considers the impact of his decision to invite a Wal-Mart into his town based on the effect it might have on a neighboring community?”

See, this is where I have a problem understanding what you are trying to say!!  If having a Wal-Mart store in your town, detroys your economy, how will Mickey Desmaris WIN for his city?  And, if allowing the Wal-Mart to go to the other town, how will it hurt his town and help the other town, if the Wal-Mart store is bad for a town?

“RDS equates “progress” and “prosperity” with building more Wal-Mart Supercenters.”

I have never said that, stop putting words in my mouth, You are the one who says that Mayor Desmaris is trying to get the Wal-Mart store, to take business away from the other town!!  And, as far as what I said, if you look, there is a question mark at the end, which is the sign that I was asking a question, not making a statement!!

bbrd,

“Tell the rest of us about your own military service, Gen. Patton...I mean Mr. Screwed…”

As I know he won’t answer, I will tell you, that he has said, he was ready to run to Canada, if he recieved a draft notice!!  And, I’m positive that there was NO American flag waving in his yard today, because he says he hates flag wavers!!

robertdfeinman,

I will not argue with you on this, except to say, that a person gets ahead in this country based on their effort, and if I sit at home waiting for my food stamps and welfare check, while you invest YOUR money in a business enterprise, chances are, that you will end up with more money than me!!  Also, there is a little known concept called ‘compounding’, at least it’s little known to people who don’t save or invest!!  The only experience ‘poor’ people have with compounding, is compounding DEBT!!  I just have a problem with the fact that some people take responsibility for their welfare and other people depend on others to be responsible for their welfare, yet they expect all things to end up EQUAL!!

As for the rest of your last post, you have to remember, that there are very few wealthy people compared to non-wealthy, and so, the government is full of people who were put there by the non-wealthy, and if they don’t like how things keep going, they should not keep voting those people back in every time!!

What’s the old saying: “If you always do, what you’ve always done, you’ll always get, what you’ve always got”!!  If things basically haven’t changed for ‘poor’ people in 232 years, who’s fault is it really?

RITA & KATRINA: 2 States, 22 Observations

2 States, 22 Observations
1. Texas: Productive industrious state run by Republicans.
Louisiana: Government dependent welfare state run by Democrats.

2. Texas: Residents take responsibility to protect and evacuate
themselves.
Louisiana: Residents wait for government to protect and evacuate them.

3. Texas: Local and state officials take responsibility for protecting
their citizens and property.
Louisiana: Local and state officials blame federal government for not
protecting their citizens and property.

4. Texas: Command and control remains in place to preserve order.
Louisiana: Command and control collapses allowing lawlessness.

5. Texas: Law enforcement officers remain on duty to protect city.
Louisiana: Law enforcement officers desert their posts to protect
themselves.

6. Texas: Local police watch for looting.
Louisiana: Local police participate in looting.

7. Texas: Law and order remains in control, 8 looters tried it, 8
looters arrested.
Louisiana: Anarchy and lawlessness breaks out, looters take over city,
no arrests, criminals with guns have to be shot by federal troops.

8. Texas: Considerable damage caused by hurricane.
Louisiana: Considerable damage caused by looters.

9. Texas: Flood barriers hold preventing cities from flooding.
Louisiana: Flood barriers fail due to lack of maintenance allowing city

to flood.

10. Texas: Orderly evacuation away from threatened areas, few remain.
Louisiana: 25,000 fail to evacuate, are relocated to another flooded
area.

11. Texas: Citizens evacuate with personal 3 day supply of food and
water.
Louisiana: Citizens fail to evacuate with 3 day supply of food and
water, do without it for the next 4 days.  They then complain that it
is not what they wanted to eat/drink.
12. Texas: FEMA brings in tons of food and water for evacuees. State
officials provide accessible distribution points.
Louisiana: FEMA brings in tons of food and water for evacuees.. State
officials prevent citizens from reaching distribution points and vice
versa.

13. Louisiana: Media focuses on poor blacks in need of assistance,
blames Bush.
Texas: Media can’t find poor blacks in need of assistance, looking for
something else to blame on Bush.

14. Texas: Coastal cities suffer some infrastructure damage, Mayors
tell residents to stay away until ready for repopulation, no
interference from federal officials.
Louisiana: New Orleans is destroyed, Mayor asks residents to return
home as another hurricane approaches, has to be overruled by federal
officials.

15. Louisiana: Over 400 killed by storm, flooding and crime.
Texas: 24 killed in bus accident on highway during evacuation, no storm related deaths.

16. Texas: Jailed prisoners are relocated to other detention facilities outside the storm area.
Louisiana: Jailed prisoners are set free to prey on city shops, residents, and homes.

17. Texas: Local and state officials work with FEMA and Red Cross in recovery operations.
Louisiana: Local and state officials obstruct FEMA and Red Cross from aiding in recovery operations.

18. Texas: Local and state officials demonstrate leadership in managing disaster areas.
Louisiana: Local and state officials fail to demonstrate leadership, require federal government to manage disaster areas.

19. Texas: Fuel deliveries can’t keep up with demand, some run out of gas on highway, need help from fuel tankers before storm arrives.
Louisiana: Motorists wait till storm hits and electrical power fails.
Cars run out of gas at gas stations that can’t pump gas. Gas in underground tanks mixes with flood waters.

20. Texas: Mayors move citizens out of danger.
Louisiana: Mayor moves himself and family to Dallas.

21. Texas: Mayors continue public service announcements and updates on television with Governor’s backing and support.
Louisiana: Mayor cusses, governor cries, senator threatens president with violence on television, none of them have a clue what went wrong or who’s responsible.

22. Louisiana: Democratic Senator says FEMA was slow in responding to 911 calls from Louisiana citizens.
Texas: Republican Senator says “when you call 911, the phone doesn’t
ring in Washington, it rings here at the local responders”.

What if state and local elected officials were forced to depend on themselves and their own resources instead of calling for help from the federal government? Texas cities would be back up and running in a few
days.
Louisiana cities would still be under water next month. Republicans
call for action, Democrats call for help.
What party will you be voting for in the next election?

What if state and local elected officials were forced to depend on themselves and their own resources instead of calling for help from the federal government? ________________________________________________And what if state and local officials would quit giving away the farm to major corporations,and close the tax loopholes-perhaps there would be more local and state tax revenue with which to deal independently when disasters strike-cit off the corporate welfare?Seems like WalMart lobbyists depend on local and state government to enact legislation to benefit THEM.Most recent example,the state of Massachusetts where a 2300 word amendment allows WalMart to skirt the combined tax reporting method that would close a loophole,a loophole WalMart has save milions of dollars,across the country for years now. Why don’t states and cities call out WalMart for the corporte welfare queen it is?

ddrb,

“Why don’t states and cities call out WalMart for the corporte welfare queen it is?”

Yeah, why don’t they?  Maybe They know something YOU don’t!!  It would be hard to believe that city and state officials don’t talk to each other, and wouldn’t share the fact that Wal-Mart shouldn’t be given tax breaks, etc., if there wasn’t some benefit for the city and state to do it!!  Unless you are trying to say, that the officials being elected by the citizens, are totally stupid!!  Also, if 1 Wal-Mart store is ‘bad’ for a community, how come some have 2 or more?  Is it that the officials didn’t LEARN the first time?  Or, like I said before, maybe they know something that people who listen to groups like Sprawlbusters, don’t know or understand!!

RDS: So, you seem to be saying, that everyone deserves what they earn and obtain, EXCEPT the wealthy, right?  Where in your logical reasoning, do you find it REASONABLE to take something from one person and give it to another?  In the case of the LAW, that is known as Theft!!  In fact, there is also a commandment in the Bible, that says, ‘Thou shalt not steal’, isn’t there?

Steal (Theft): 1. To take from another without right or permission. 2.To take or obtain in a subtle manner. 3. The act or instance of is called “Socialism” or “Communism”!!

RDS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~So,RDS,how is it that you don’t have a problem with the Socialist ,Communist government of China? Does this not present a dichotomy-if you have such an aversion to Socialism,how do you reconcile your love of Chinese imports? And your defense of WalMart and its close affliations to China?Isn’t that ,or shoudn’t that present a crisis of conscience for you?

ddrb,

Let me try to explain this to you, okay?  I believe that people have the right to choose the type of government they want to represent them, and, even if I may not like that form, it is still their choice!!  I choose to not want our system to become socialistic!!  In the case of China, they have embraced ‘Capitalism’, and socialism may not last once the people get used what they can have under ‘Capitalism’, they just might choose to replace their current system, in fact, the change is already happening, for those who choose to see it!!

As for Chinese imports, I am buying a product, not a country, or a political system, where it came from means little, as long as it fits my purpose for buying it!!

“shoudn’t that present a crisis of conscience for you?”

Why should I have a crisis of conscience over people trying to better themselves?  You may look at yourself as a citizen of this country only, I consider myself, not only a citizen of this country, but a citizen of the planet as well!!

RDS: That sounds like a rationale a dope dealer would have-"Well,people gonna get it,if they want it,no matter what source it comes from.This is just the freemarket.” It is evident that you have a conscience of convenience.And you are a pocketbook patriot.

ddrb,

And, what is your rationale - ‘I don’t care how much others in the world suffer, as long as I can keep and get more than everyone else in the world’!!  When you scream for HIGHER wages, aren’t you also a ‘pocketbook patriot’?  And, if I don’t worry about MY pocketbook, who will?, the people who want to take what I have from me?, people like the Liberals, who prefer redistribution of wealth, over ‘personal responsibility’?

Remember, there are millions of people on this planet, who would love to have what the average ‘poor’ person in the U.S. has!!  You pretend to care, as long as the people you care about, are here in the U.S.!!  I’m willing to give up a little, to help someone else in the world to get ahead, are you?  I’m not the one throwing the wrench in the engine (wealth), that drives the world, you are!!

RDS: Don’t quote the Bible to justify YOUR hypocrisy and selfishness.

RDS: Don’t quote the Bible to justify YOUR hypocrisy and selfishness.

Unlike SVD, who quotes scripture in one paragraph and curses in the next…

bbrd: Was that post addressed to you?

ddrb,

“RDS: Don’t quote the Bible to justify YOUR hypocrisy and selfishness.”

Okay, here it is from me, SDV used Bible quotes, like they were aimed directly at Wal-Mart and you said nothing about them!!  Like most Bible thumpers do, SDV tended to pick and choose what Bible passages he thought might make his point, but if someone else does it, all of a sudden, it’s “Don’t quote the Bible”!!  If one person uses something, it should be fair game to all!!

As for selfishness, isn’t it selfish, to deny people in other countries a chance to better their lives, just so that YOU can keep your high standard of living?

bbrd: Was that post addressed to you?

No, * , but my response was authorized—kinda like tags at the end of the political ads…

Live with it.

bbrd: No,RDS will have to live with owning lies told by those speaking for him.

ddrb,

“No,RDS will have to live with owning lies told by those speaking for him.”

I can live with that, you live with the lies told by others that YOU back up!!  Besides, we don’t need to lie, but your side does, we just throw the truth at you and watch you spin like a top!!

RDS: POST some of the lies that the anti side has concocted here-Especially lies that are aimed at INDIVIDUAL bloggers-I for one WANT to see them.Put up or shut up,RDS.

ddrb,

How about these:

“If they all became a slumlord like you ,evicting people out because of too many kids,something bad is going to happen in your life ,just for treating people like dirt. What goes around comes around.

AA in
Thursday, April 03 at 04:20 AM”

or,

“RDS SOCIAL SECURITY WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU <YOU DID NOT EARN IT.
SLUMLORD PRI--.

BIN LADEN WAS RIGHT , GREED WILL RUIN THE USA.  AND IT IS ALL BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

FRED in
Saturday, April 26 at 05:46 PM”

or,

“Bob is a slumlord! They don’t have those kinds of luxuries in the dumps that he rents out.

BTW, you can try to play the GENEROUS land lord and all around good guy, but those of us that have come to know you over the last couple of years know BETTER! You would gut your own mother if you thought she had swallowed a dime!

As for the anonymous person that turned in your tenants, well Bob that was you. It makes sense that you would have to wait for the courts to evict them so you found a short cut. You are such a coward! Grow some BALLS Bob. Take responsibility for you scumbag actions. You won’t get my respect, but Mary might come to worship at your alter.

Big D in
Monday, January 28 at 12:42 PM”

or, how about this one,

“Rds and your way is any better. HAAA

Kicked out of the TEAMSTERS

Failed union organizer.

Couldn’t handle a farm.

Brown nose and kiss ass as a hourly supervisor. Not even white collar .

Kicked off of wakeup walmart web sites.

Slumlord.

Worships money.

Some in family besides grandson works for wm,
Reason he really sticks up for wm.

Joe in
Wednesday, May 28 at 05:47 AM”

How do those compare with someone claiming to be your EX?

RDS: In my opinion, those above remarks were very clear in their intent. I do not know if all or any of these statements are accurate,represent someone’s opinion of you,or is a response to an accusation you possibly levied against them.You are/have no doubt responded accordingly.( Yet these are taken as excerpts,out of context which may shed further light on WHY these comments were made.) The difference I see is there is no fabrication that someone has been your intimate partner or that you spent time with this alleged partner at Cape Cod.(I have never been to Cape Cod IN MY LIFE.) That goes beyond insult and argument into pathology. There can be no rationale to fabricate intentional lies at that unwarranted, personal level of intentional deception and malice . If you cannot understand the difference, then it is doubtful you really want to.

(I have never been to Cape Cod IN MY LIFE.)

Perhaps your stalker’s use of Cape Cod as the locale for his fantasy sheds some light on his orientation? He does seem totally inept around women.

If anyone asked who in Corporate America most resembles Darth Vader, it would probably be Lee Scott. ~ Jon Ogg

ddrb,

Oh, I see, someone pretending to be your EX mate, is way more serious than being called a ‘scumbag’, ‘slumlord’, ‘failed union organizer’, failed farmer’ and a ‘Brown nose and kiss ass’!!  Some here have even made terrible comments about my wife, but, I guess your situation was way worse, so, I feel for your pain!!

That goes beyond insult and argument into pathology.

Oh, like the same way people “poke fun” at, say, Wal-Mart??

You’re killing me, Smalls…

Perhaps your stalker’s use of Cape Cod as the locale for his fantasy sheds some light on his orientation? He does seem totally inept around women.

Nice try, loser-boy* - what women?

Oh, is that what * is??  Actually, it was kinda hard to tell between all the unspaced punctuation…

*Purely, a representation of my opinion of you, ‘cause * said it was OK to do so…

Oh, I see, someone pretending to be your EX mate, is way more serious than being called a ‘scumbag’, ‘slumlord’, ‘failed union organizer’, failed farmer’ and a ‘Brown nose and kiss ass’!!

Obviously so—and the irony was it took only one, carefully-crafted sentence of mine to irk our good friend * (unlike entire we pages these clowns write/copy/post about Rubbermaid, which didn’t produce the desired effect).

The things others posted about you were little more than personal attacks, which is something cowards tend to do when they can conveniently hide behind their internet alais.

Some here have even made terrible comments about my wife, but, I guess your situation was way worse, so, I feel for your pain!!

IMO, the comments about Mrs. RDS were otally uncalled for - especially being that because of certain randomly-posting goons around here, we know more about you than most anyone else (with the exception of the guy from Wisco who seems to be his own self-promotion).

Oh, is that what * is??

If you had ever seen * you wouldn’t have to ask.

Let’s see, bbrd. You claim to be the ex significant other of someone and you don’t know their gender?

I just love watching you twisting in the wind.

...comments about my wife...

I’m glad to see you are finally referring to your wife as your ‘wife’, RDS. Calling her your ‘partner’ sounded so...um...yesterday.

I just love watching you twisting in the wind.

Not quite, Kenbo, but if it embellishes your little fantasy world, so be it…