So long suburbia…so long Wal-Mart?

The problem with Kunstler is that he continues to focus on the disaster parts of the scenario and not on the possible solutions. The US (nor anywhere else) is going to go back to small town life. The entire history, since the beginning of the industrial revolution has been from the countryside to cities.

In Africa the trend is so pronounced right now that there are over a dozen cities that are reaching sizes approaching 10 million people.

What will drive people away from areas will not be exurban sprawl, but the lack of water. It makes no sense to build communities in the middle of the deserts in the Southwest. These will fail. Exurban areas will be able to adapt if they reduce their need for personal travel. This can be any combination of mass transit, closer job siting to living areas and more local shopping. Infilling with higher density housing can also help.

Of course, this means that the Walmart model will no longer be viable, but there is nothing to prevent Walmart from adapting as well. They are already trying out smaller stores in some areas. It is also possible that merchants will resort more to home delivery.

I recently proposed bringing back the modern equivalent of street vendors. For example, mobile trucks carrying produce could set up in a community once a week and shoppers could walk over to make their purchases. Similar things could be done with other perishables such as diary, eggs and baked goods.

When I was a kid we still had such trucks making home deliveries and I lived in NYC. It wasn’t all that long ago…

What is lacking now is not ideas, but leadership from leaders in government and industry.

really

Hey Matt see you made it out of jail ,How was your stay. Make a lot of new friends, I BET.

yeah im glad to be back on here and see the same old folks again spewing the same old nonsense and garbage on here.its funny no one ever raises traffic concerns when any strip mall or other high cost big box store or ufcw union grocery store that brings just as much or more congestion than walmart.can any of you walmart haters on here honestly answer that for me?

Robert feinman,

I’ve enjoyed reading some of your comments here, but this time I have to disagree with you.  Like yourself, I too can remember the milkman making morning deliveries to the neighborhood and the truck farmer who came down the street honking his horn, selling fruits and vegetables off the truck.

You say: “The US (nor anywhere else) is going to go back to small town life.”

Your suggestion that “mobile trucks carrying produce could set up in a community once a week,” sounds like nothing more than a nostalgic longing for the past.  This won’t happen any more than a return to “small town life.”

I say this for several reasons.  What about during the long winter months?  I’ve seen first-hand how the trucking industry is being impacted by uncertain fuel prices.  Also, in today’s litigious society, there are liability and insurance issues to consider.

It’s not economically feasible for anyone to return to selling off the truck as in days gone by.

A Trucker:
What is economically feasible may depend upon changes in cost structures. Right now there are communities where people sell things out of the back of the cars (I’m not talking about hot items, but things like women’s clothing).

A mobile green grocer would require zoning changes and a change in attitude for gated communities. I also see resistance from supermarkets, which is why in my original proposal I suggested that these peddlers be run by the stores themselves.

There is a strong interest in farmer’s markets. In my town the local merchants managed to fend off such a proposal because their feared the competition, but there is one five miles away in a nearby town.

Something is going to have to change, if it isn’t my plan than it will have to be something else. As for winter, people may just have to get used to not being pampered so much. A bit of outdoor shopping in cold weather isn’t the end of the world. Another thing that may have to change is buying off season vegetables and fruit. Perhaps people may even go back to eating canned goods. Unlike frozen they don’t require energy for storage.

We don’t know what sorts of changes will come about. Do you have any opinions?

Hey Robert Feinman,

I agree with you-- “something has to change.” What those things are, is anyone’s guess.  “Do I have any opinions?”

You bet I do!  Don’t know if they’re any good, but I’ve got lots and lots of opinions.

First of all, speaking from more of a self-interested point of view, gas and fuel prices need to be brought under control.  Oil should be taken off the commodities market the way it once was.  Speculators should not be able to artificially move the price of oil up and down.  It makes no sense.  The price of oil needs to be stabalized in the $80-$100 a barrel range.  Along with this the supply needs to be increased.  The greedy oil companies should be forced to plow their massive profits into building more refineries.  There is no denying the fact that the burgeoning middle class in China and India is going to increase the demand for gas and fuel.

It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that not only food but other goods are going up in price due to rising oil prices.  Everything comes by truck!

We need to get out of Iraq NOW!  I’m one of those who believes we shouldn’t have been there in the first place.  I heard or read that we are spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $12 billion a month in Iraq.  That money could be better spent!

I strongly believe in developing alternative energy sources to take some of the pressure off of oil, but as we’ve all seen, ethanol is NOT the way to go.

Another thing I’m in favor of is light rail, or mass transit, in major cities.  We are so behind the curve in this it’s ridiculous.  Cities like New York, Chicago, Boston, and San Francisco have had rail and subway service for decades.  I remember when they were first building Disneyland and Disney World.  “Tomorrow Land” featuring the monorail, looked so futuristic.  For most cities this was supposed to be the look of the future.  We’ve got a long way to go!

Again, I don’t think your plan to have stores bring products to the customer via “mobile shopping” would ever work.  People have been too programmed and spoiled by convenience.  Stores and supermarkets spend a lot of time cross marketing products.  They lure shoppers in with their so-called loss leaders, hoping they will leave with 10 other “unadvertised specials” as well.  People would have to change their buying habits drastically. 

Well you asked.  These are just some of my “opinions.”

GO to www. cnn money /global fuel prices.com search around there and then tell me why do the china drivers pay 1.54 usd per gallon of gas.

Joe,

I’m not sure what you’re asking.  You do understand the basic economic principles of supply and demand don’t you?  Of course when it comes to oil/gas prices, supply and demand do not tell the whole story.  Today’s high prices do not make any sense.  The reason is that trader’s and speculators have been able to move the price of oil up or down for no particular reason at all.

Consider this:  The price of a gallon of gas in Caracas, Venezuela is $0.12, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia $0.91 per gallon, and in Lagos, Nigeria it’s $0.38 a gallon.  These are all oil producing countries.  Not only are they close to the source or supply, but the respective governments heavily subsidize the cost of gasoline.  The IMF (International Monetary Fund) has been pressuring the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation to raise prices for a long time.

Now take a look at countries like Milan, Italy where the price per gallon of gas is $5.96, in Stockholm, Sweden it’s $5.80 per gallon, in London, United Kingdom $5.79, Frankfurt, Germany $5.57 and Brussels, Belgium $5.91.  These are not oil producing countries, the government does not subsidize prices, the demand is high and they do not have the same access to the world supply as the United States does.  In Europe they have been paying more than $5.00 per gallon for a long time.

In the meantime, you get WACKOS like RDS blabbering in his usual self-made and complacent way, how $5.00 per gallon gas prices in this country are an impossibility!  As recently as January 2007, RDS was bragging how gas was only $1.99 where he lives.  I wonder what the going price is in his neighborhood today?

Now RDS will probably come back with some Wise A$$ comment how I “predicted” $5.00 per gallon gas prices towards the end of 2006.  So I was a little aggressive in my estimate!  Guilty!  At the same time, I wasn’t aggressive enough in my estimate of the cost per barrel.  At the time the going price was $75-80 a barrel.  I predicted $100+per barrel?  But once a psycological price point is broken, market forces push it to the next level.  Who would have thought that we’d top $118 a barrel where we are today?  Some analysts are calling for the price to top $125 a barrel.  Do I hear $150?

Like I’ve said before, we are just one war, or one major disaster away from paying significantly more than $5.00 per gallon.

Besides not having any discernable exit strategy in Iraq, this country does not have any discernable long-term energy policy!

But RDS can’t help to build up that massive Chinese middle class of new automobile owners all by himself.  He’s counting on others to keep shopping at Wal-Mart.  This way we will soon be competing and bidding against China for the world’s limited oil resources.

robertdfeinman,

“In my town the local merchants managed to fend off such a proposal because their feared the competition”

Isn’t it strange how some people want to regulate a business out of business, rather than compete with them?

A Trucker,

“Along with this the supply needs to be increased.  The greedy oil companies should be forced to plow their massive profits into building more refineries.”

The supply could be increased, if the ‘tree huggers’ would let more drilling be done in Alaska and off the coast of Florida in the Gulf!!  Also, when it comes to refineries, it boils down to the old NIMBY, just like you don’t want Wal-Mart’s, they don’t want refineries!!

Screwedby,

“In the meantime, you get WACKOS like RDS blabbering in his usual self-made and complacent way, how $5.00 per gallon gas prices in this country are an impossibility!”

I have never said that $5.00 a gallon gas was an impossibility, I just said it wouldn’t get there by the end of 2006 and guess what, this ‘wacko’ was right!!

“As recently as January 2007, RDS was bragging how gas was only $1.99 where he lives.  I wonder what the going price is in his neighborhood today?”

I paid $3.44 a gallon today!!  But, I still predict that the National Average price will not excede $5.00 by the end of 2008!!

What I like, is people complaining about the gas prices, yet they romp around on their four wheelers, and drive their ‘Big trucks & SUV’s’ with the V-8 engines!!

I think they should have different pumps, for different size vehicles with ‘lower prices’ for smaller vehicles and ‘higher prices’ for those BIG vehicles!!  BURN MORE, PAY MORE!!

Also, Bio-Fuels could be produced, using waste materials, like corn stalks or switchgrass, instead of feed products like corn!!  In Brazil, they use sugar cane, maybe we could use sugar beets!!

“But RDS can’t help to build up that massive Chinese middle class of new automobile”

And, it’s just like YOU, to want to deny other people in the world, the same conveniences YOU have, just so you can keep your gas costs ‘low’, so that you can have enough money to buy those MORE EXPENSIVE products you always talk about!!  Only Americans deserve to be ‘middle class’, right?  Who’s greedy and selfish now?

More Libertarian Double-Talk Puke From RDS!

So which is it “big boy?” I thought you were all in favor of “personal responsibility.” Does that only apply to people in the U.S.?  Is it our responsibility to pull others up the socio-economic ladder?

“Only Americans deserve to be ‘middle class’, right?”

Oh...now you are suddenly this altruistic self-sacrificing do-gooder, who merely wants to help others in other countries achieve your “American Ideals” and achieve middle class status.  Is that it “Free Trade Boy?”

Yeah, how often haven’t we seen you whine about “free trade” and the “global economy” RDS?

As I and many others have said for a long time, it’s about FAIR TRADE! I don’t have a problem trading with other countries and helping out their economies, but not when it comes at the expense and to the detriment of my country’s economy.  There must be more balanced trade.  We can not continue to run huge trading deficits with countries like China.  China must stop manipulating it’s currency.

This is another reason why we are seeing unprecedented high gasoline prices in this country.  The traders on Wall Street have seen the continued battering of the dollar in world currency markets.  They are hedging their bets by betting up the price of oil and other commodities.

I’ll throw you another crumb, RDS.  You aren’t original, but you are correct about bio fuels.  There’s a lot more this country could be doing to ease the pressures of petro-based fuels.

For those interested in the oil situation I suggest following the discussions on The Oil Drum blog site. Unlike many places they actually get real experts to post essays.
http://www.theoildrum.com/

A Trucker:
Much as you may hope for lower fuel prices, the current run up is not really due to speculation. Speculation can affect futures prices since there is a chance to make a profit if the price changes between now and when the option expires. The spot market is an indication of how much people are willing to pay right now. There is little spread between the futures and spot prices.

The major oil companies only control about 20% of world oil supply. About 75% is controlled by state owned national industries in the oil producing states. The giveaways to the oil companies in the US are a disgrace, and are worth many billions, but in terms of the overall world market they are not significant.

See this as an example of the pressure on supplies caused by car ownership in China:

http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/67018.htm

“More than 10 million cars are privately owned in China and the number is set to continue to rise in the world’s fastest growing auto market, according to the National Bureau of Statistics.

The bureau’s latest statistics show that 1.36 million cars were sold in China during the first four months this year, with about 60 percent bought by individuals. “

There is no going back - at least not without out strong government intervention.

Thanks for your insights, Robert Feinman!

You bring more thoughtful analysis to the discussion than any of the Pro Wal-Mart bunch who simply cut, paste and spew their opinions as well as the Wal-Mart rhetoric they lift from Walmart.com

Thanks also for the links!

Brother Trucker: Didn’t King George tell us that the Iraqi oil would pay for the cost of the war?

Hey ddrb!

Personally, I never try to listen to what “King George” says about anything!

“I still predict that the National Average price will not excede $5.00 by the end of 2008!!” ~RDS

Way to “go out on the limb” with your BIG “prediction”, RDS.  Considering it took a year and 3 months for gas prices to rise by $1.45/gal in your neighborhood, nobody will ever call you astute!  Would you care to be really daring and tell me what prices might look like in June of 2009 if the Republicans get in the White House again? 

This is an election year.  I don’t think Bush and his “buddies” like Cheney want to see gas prices rise much more.  It wouldn’t look good for the Republicans.

Just keep doing your part by scarfing up all that Chinese crap you can get your hands on.  Keep shopping at Wal-Mart.  We’ll see those $5.00+ prices sooner than you think.  It’s inevitable.  Unless, as Robert Feinman says, “something is going to have to change.”

Screwedby,

“So which is it “big boy?” I thought you were all in favor of “personal responsibility.” Does that only apply to people in the U.S.?  Is it our responsibility to pull others up the socio-economic ladder?”

I am in favor of ‘personal responsibility’, but, buying things from other countries is NOT pulling others up the socio-economic ladder, that is their ‘personal responsiblitiy’!!  ‘Lower prices’ are ‘good’ for our economy, I know that YOU don’t see it that way, because you have a one track mind, (HIGH PRICE = QUALITY)!!  You talk about “Fair Trade”, but, that can only happen when TRADE is allowed in the first place, once a country depends on our trade, we can negotiate for “Fair Trade”!!

“Would you care to be really daring and tell me what prices might look like in June of 2009 if the Republicans get in the White House again?”

Hate to tell you this, but, it really won’t make any difference which party gets in the White House, unless we get a decent Energy Policy passed through Congress, that increases U.S. drilling and adds new refineries, and persues a sensible Bio-fuel program, without using foodstuffs as a base product, not much will actually change!!  Did you ever wonder why it is that gas is $4.00+ in some areas and $3.00+ in other areas, shouldn’t it be the same all over?

BTW:  Did you hear, that the government through the Farm program, pays farmers NOT to plant crops on some 2.8 million acres?  Food shortages, huh!!

This article is ridiculous.  Every time gas prices raise people start to yap about extreme scenarios like this.  Walmart is already moving to make their stores more efficient which is going to limit the increase in their fuel and utility costs.  Also as fuel prices rise companies will research alternative fuels more and more since there will be more demand for them.  Also the inflation adjusted gas prices are pretty much the same as they were in the early 80’s when Walmart was starting to grow into the huge company that they are today.  So if they didn’t hurt a new somewhat unestablished company it’s doubtful that they will hurt a company with the resources that Walmart has today.

All this debate about gas prices begs this thought…

...as we all know, there have been numerous activists, out to make a name for themselves, who successfully managed to keep Wal-Mart out of their towns.

I wonder what kind of backlash these “community-minded” individuals/groups are now facing from those who have this choice to make:

1.  Drive 20 miles to the nearest Wal-Mart (and pay the high gas prices to get there).

2.  Shop local, have little choice in selection/price, make multiple stops (and still pay for the gas to make all those “short” trips happen).

But then again, we can’t all be as fortunate as ddrb and her “30-footer"…

IF you don’t shop local, its going to be a long walk 20 miles away when nothing is left,but wal mart.

Just saw a report on how prices have gone up since the announcement of those checks which was in feb.

Think there is any price gouging ?

What is going to take, the truckers quit.

The farmers can’t farm their fields, because of fuel.

Better plant that garden like Robert F. said.

“I wonder what kind of backlash these “community-minded” individuals/groups are now facing from those who have this choice to make:

1.  Drive 20 miles to the nearest Wal-Mart (and pay the high gas prices to get there).

2.  Shop local, have little choice in selection/price, make multiple stops (and still pay for the gas to make all those “short” trips happen)."~(bbrd)

So other than Walmart and small local shops, people in the States don’t have any other retailers to patronize?

Seems kind of arrogant bbrd.

PS. Why do you change your spelling of the same certain words bbrd?
Are you actually a character (created at Walmarts headquarters) that has many different authors?

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

So other than Walmart and small local shops, people in the States don’t have any other retailers to patronize?

Basically, very few, Al.  That is, unless you’re willing/able to make the drive somewhere.

In this country, Wal-Mart’s only true “peers” are Target and Kmart. 

Niether of these chains are set-up in smaller towns, because Target is still growing, and Kmart has been in a state of contraction (store closings) over the past 10-15 years.

Seems kind of arrogant bbrd.

“Arrogant” are these groups I mentioned who think they have my best interests in mind.  I don’t know about you, but I don’t like others making choices without my input.

Are you actually a character...

I would distinguish that remark with a sarcastic comeback, but the sad part is you may actually believe it…

but the sad part is you may actually believe it…

Please don’t do that, bbrd! I’d hate to have a precedence set of anyone believing anything that oozes from your keyboard.

“If some community, for whatever reason, doesn’t want us in there, then we are not interested in going in and creating a fuss.  Wal-Mart wants to go where it is wanted.“ ~ Sam Walton

Please don’t do that, bbrd! I’d hate to have a precedence set of anyone believing anything that oozes from your keyboard.

Or those old, tired, recycled quotes you always tag at the end of every post, Kenbo…

BTW, why is it when I do a search on “Linda Bevard” (or anyone else you’re quoting, for that matter), the only hits I get are those attached to your posts?

Best be careful, or we are going to have to ask you to name sources…

...we are going to have to ask you to name sources…

We? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

As for sourcing my quotes, I do whenever possible. Quite frankly, I can’t recall where I obtained the Linda Bevard quote. It might have been any one of dozens of anti Wal-Mart messageboards/blogs/consumer sites. A large percentage of my “old, tired, recycled quotes” come from regular people like you and me.... well, like me. They are known as Keepers.

But what difference does it make who Linda Bevard is? What’s important is how she feels about Wal-Mart. One of my favorite quotes* comes from an under-educated Wal-Mart associate. You can carp on his style but it’s hard to get any truer than this:

“wal-mart is one big piece of shit with a door” ~ ananomous

*You may have trouble tracking this one down as well. :o)

You Should Try a Search for Sam Walton Quotes, bbrd

It seems to me Ken V has quoted Sam Walton a few times, bbrd.  Maybe you’d like to plug him into your next search.

Ken V,

“But what difference does it make who Linda Bevard is?”

It makes a lot of difference, if Linda Bevard is a fictitious person!!  BTW:  Who is this “ananomous”?  Do you believe everything an ‘ananomous’ person has to say? 

Screwedby,

“It seems to me Ken V has quoted Sam Walton a few times”

That is all well and good, but, when the quotes are taken out of context and slanted to fit your needs, that is disingenuous!!  Take Ken’s last quote from Sam, it doesn’t say “when SOME group of people in a community doesn’t want a store”, it actually says a “community”, meaning ALL or MOST of the people in the community!!  Yet, Ken makes it sound, like if a few people didn’t want a store, Sam would have backed off, NOT TRUE!!

“Do you believe everything an ‘ananomous’ person has to say?” ~RDS

More so than I believe most of the things you say RDS!

Screwedby,

“More so than I believe most of the things you say RDS!”

Do you think I care if you believe anything I say?  You are the one crying “Woe is me, I can’t get ahead because the country is falling apart”, not me!!  The people I’m aiming my comments at, are the people who are interested in making their lives better and want to try to keep them from listening to people like you, who want to send them on that path of ‘the race to the bottom’, that you are following!!

I think I’m winning, and you think you are losing, most smart people would choose to listen to the winner!!

RDS get over yourself. No one listens to the crap you put out.

You must have a wonderful retirement to spend your free time on this site.

You really hit it big,,,WOW!!

It seems to me Ken V has quoted Sam Walton a few times, bbrd.  Maybe you’d like to plug him into your next search.

I believe RDS summed it up, nicely—folks like Ken V will take nearly anything out of context, if it can be manipulated (read: spun) it to satisfy their claims.

Herad you were “beating myself and others” up—so, how’s that working-out for you, anyway?

JOE,

“RDS get over yourself. No one listens to the crap you put out.
You must have a wonderful retirement to spend your free time on this site.”

Guess you are one of the ones who listens to the losing side then!!  And, you got that right, I was able to retire 5 years early, because of the ‘crap I put out”, how’s it going towards YOUR retirement?  Keep listening to the likes of Ken V. and Screwedby and you might never be able to retire!!

Let me school you pro Wal-Marters for a moment.

There are several reasons why one quotes. Sometimes it’s because the person being quoted is an authority on the subject at hand. Other times because the quote sums up an idea or concept particularly well.

It’s this second category that seems to be giving you problems, bbrd. What difference does it make who Linda Bevard, or anyone else I quote, is? You either agree with her words or your don’t.

Now, I don’t have to use quotes, I could claim the words as my own and, as you pointed out, who would know the difference? But I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

Live with it.

Wal-Mart: “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.” ~ Obi-wan Kenobi :o)

<i>Keep listening to the likes of Ken V..../i?

I was born retired!

**More tornados in eastern Arkansas. Are you sure moving there was a good “decision”, RDS?

rdf: Perhaps suburbia equates with SUVurbia.

Ken V,

“I was born retired!”

I’ve known a number of people like that, their parents were on welfare and the kids followed in their footsteps, living off the government, instead of working for a living!!  So, you could say, that they “were born retired”!!

“**More tornados in eastern Arkansas. Are you sure moving there was a good “decision”, RDS?”

I live in ‘western’ Arkansas, but, and, there were tornados in Wisconsin too!!  I spent 2 days in Texas once and the town of Odessa, was wiped out by tornados, so they are in YOUR state as well!!  And, YES, moving here was a great ‘decision’!!