The Wal-Mart Economy, And How We Got Here

A friend of mine who struggles to make ends meet, sporadically dumpster-dives at the local Walmart. Yesterday he found 4 brand-new lawn mowers in their bin. Needing one for next season, he had a go, only to discover that each mower had its engine block smashed in order to make them useless. This isn’t the first instance. A few years ago, they had chucked 10 (yes, ten) Mongoose bicycles, and these had been shot with red paint, had spokes & brake cables cut + slashed tires. The damage was done by walmart flunkies, he witnessed it.
I write this to demonstrate incontrovertible proof of the total disdain walmart corp. has for the greater economy or the individuals they “serve”. This is wanton destruction to ensure another customer can be seperated from their cash next season, and it’s inescusable. If they place (obviously) no value on their “goods”, and want to clear the crap out for seasonal offerings, they could very well “remainder mark” the stuff and unload the mowers for say 25$ as-is to clear them out, and give disadvantaged folks a fighting chance.
It would appear the only good social deeds wally-world performs are those that make for good cheap PR.
Disgusting!

“Im ashamed because i am forced to shop there.”

No one is ‘forcing’ you to shop at Wal-Mart besides YOURSELF!!  There is Target, K-Mart, Aldis, Best Buy, Big Lots, Walgreens, Dollar Stores, and many, many others, if it makes you feel “ashamed”!!  The fact that you feel the ‘need’ to shop at Wal-Mart, shows that THEY are HELPING people shop ‘for less cost’ and thus, save people money, over the others stores I named!!  So, quit crying and either shop elsewhere or be glad that Wal-Mart is there to make your dollar go further!!

A Fair Wage
by Jim Fedako

You hear it from them all the time; teachers just want a fair wage. Oh, well who doesn’t? This line of thought begs two questions: How are wage rates established in a free market? And, are market wage rates fair?

How are wage rates established in a free market? The insights from the Austrian School of Economics show that workers earn their discounted marginal value product. In simple terms, workers earn now the current value of what they add to the production of future goods. That explanation easily fits those who produce consumer goods or factors of production, but what about those in the service sector? How, for example, is the wage rate of barbers established?

In order to understand the service sector we have to consider the alternate cost of employment. The marginal worker, one who can either work in the factory or cut hair, decides which employment to pursue based on relative wages. The cost for working in one field is the wage of the best alternate form of employment in another field. If the cost of working exceeds the benefit, it behooves the worker to seek the alternate field of employment.

If the factory offers better wages, the worker takes the factory job. If cutting hair offers better wages, the worker becomes a barber. If the relative wage rate of barbers begins exceeding the relative wage rate of factory workers, the marginal factory worker switches professions and enters the barber market. By doing this, the wages of barbers would fall as the wages of factory workers rise.

Had the worker stayed in the factory, he would have lost potential earnings. It is the alternate cost of employment, the foregone potential earnings, which guides acting man into the most remunerative employment. And it is this voluntary movement, the change of professions, which tends to guide the labor market toward equilibrium. [1]

This simplistic example shows that service sector employee wages are tied to the discounted marginal value product of labor in general.

Are market wage rates fair? As detailed above, workers earn either their discounted marginal value product or the equivalent wage of their best alternate employment. To say that one wage rate is unfair is to say that the worker earning that rate deserves a premium wage over a similarly productive worker in another sector of the economy. To say that a math teacher is underpaid in a free market is to say that the math teacher deserves to be paid more than the value product of teaching requires.

In a free market, wages cannot be unfair as they are set by the direction of the consumer. When the alternate cost of employment rises above the wage rate, workers shift sectors and set the labor market back toward equilibrium. [2]

In order to gain a wage premium, government interventions must occur. These interventions can take the form of field or general minimum wages, granting unions legal right to control sectors of the economy, government wage supports, or the creation of a government monopoly or quasi-monopoly in a sector of the economy - the school system for example. (con’t)

In a free market teachers would also earn the equivalent of their discounted wage in the productive sector of the economy. A math teacher would earn the equivalent wage of a similarly productive worker in, say, the software industry - who earns the equivalent wage of a similarly productive worker in the engineering industry, and so on.If the math teacher was underpaid relative to his best alternate employment, this would be a signal there is an excess of math teachers, and that math teachers are being underutilized in their current employment.

The teacher market is not free; it is a quasi-monopoly where the vast majority of employees are unionized under a government-run system. Unlike the Soviet Union, which used the free markets of the world to establish some sort of price level, public schools do not look to private schools for wage guidance. Private schools pay their workers a much lower wage, but as above, they must pay a wage that exceeds the alternate costs of employment. [3]

Are public school teachers overpaid? Since there is no way to discern the true alternate cost of employment for all public school teachers in a free market - because no free market for teachers exists - we must rely on the available market data provided by private schools. This shows that teachers, in general, are absolutely overpaid.

In addition, and more importantly, we know a priori that governments are inefficient and over-pay and over-employ factors of production. Also, government teaching licensure rules create barriers to entry for those wishing to seek out a teaching career thus driving wage rates higher. Then, of course, there are the government-backed unions who rule the roost through strikes and threats of strikes. [4]

Are public teacher salaries unfair? Certainly. They are unfair to the taxpayer who is forced to pay the tax bill that supports the premium wage of public school teachers. In a free labor market a teacher’s real salary can only increase with the marginal value product of employees in the next best alternate employment. In the quasi-monopoly that currently exists, teachers have realized salary increases that are not tied to the labor market; the salary increases are simply the result of political pressure.

The next time you hear teachers claim that they need a fair wage, tell them to drop the union banners and open education to the free market; the one market where everyone earns their fair wage. ~ EducationNews.org

http://www.ednews.org/articles/1654/1/A-Fair-Wage/Page1.html

Alex,

Did you ever think that they destroyed these because they were possibly recalled? Plus, what is to prevent a dumpster diver from taking it out of the trash and bringing it back in to the service desk for a refund or gift card exchange? Some manufactures do not want you to return defective products. They ask that they be destroyed and disposed on site.

Keep in mind this happened yesterday, after the end of mowing season (here). No, they were not recalls, the pattern of destroying and dumping seasonal wares is de rigeur for this walmart (at least). A “remainder mark” is somthing done to books/media routinely, and it ensures such items can’t be returned for credit. We can be quite certain it isn’t beyond the capability of a chain store to do likewise.

As far as the manufacturers wishes are concerned, walmart mowers I think are made offshore, like 98% of everthing they flog, and are literally bought wholesale as-is Most Chinese light industries have no mechanism for accepting stuff back, and it’s hardly worth the shipping costs anyway. They return nothing to factory except big-ticket electronics.

If you don’t believe me, just perch y’self in view of your local Walmart’s bin, and watch what goes in. The plain, simple, truth is that Walmart wares (in the eyes of their management) are nothing but bait used to seperate consumers from their hard earned cash.

“But the two aren’t separate stories.”
Eric Bull

While it is true that capitalism is best when it behaves itself, the greater story here is how greed displaces patriotism and loyalty to the American economy, people, workers, consumers, families etc in a Global Labor Arbitrage scheme. It was required to make ‘protectionism’ a dirty word in the American dialogue no matter the cost to the national interest of its people. ‘Free Trade’ was never free and has had severe consequences that the false prophets of economic psychopathy will never acknowledge, even today.

Alex, you make an expected reference and illustration to how WalMart/Bentonville greed and psychopathic ‘love of money’ capitalism behaves. Economic theories and retail propaganda of ‘free market capitalism’ are a joke at best under the Bushco/Reaganomics tradeoffs enacted against the American people on behalf of corporatism. This ‘conservative capitalistic secularism’ has no interest in the outcome and effect upon people. All they care about is reckless adherence to ill-motivated and estranged theories on money, economic illusions, tax avoidance and the accompanied propaganda that must try and maintain a culture of selfishness that gives tacit approval to their model even when the failure is so deep against society.

WalMart- We are not burning down America’s economic house in a capitalistic ‘creative destruction’. We are merely helping America through tough times we helped to create.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/11/19/7457561-sun.html

$16.60 minimum wage to live in T.O.: Report
By JENNY YUEN, SUN MEDIA

Last Updated: 19th November 2008, 2:34am

A new report finds that the minimum wage may be way too low. The Good Jobs Coalition says it needs to be raised significantly.
Play Video Mahen Krishnamoorthy works 16 hours a day, seven days a week, to support his family.

It’s a tough reality he’s had to face since moving to Canada from Sri Lanka 13 years ago made harder by the fact that he has to provide for four others, including his sick mother.

“It leaves me maybe with $50, if that,” Krishnamoorthy, 48, said from his Regent Park public housing apartment yesterday. “There’s no room for savings.”

His 38-year-old wife, Shanthi, recently took a job at Tim Horton’s working part-time for minimum wage just to give the family some emergency money. “I wish I wasn’t forced to work,” she said. “I would rather spend more time with my kids.”

According to a new report released yesterday by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA), in order for Torontonians to have a decent living, the minimum wage must be raised to at least $16.60 an hour for a couple raising two children and $16.15 for a single parent with one child.

$8.75 AN HOUR

The current minimum wage in Ontario is $8.75 an hour, which is set to go up to $10 in 2010.

Between his full-time job at the Delta Chelsea Hotel, which pays $16.40 an hour, and his part-time hours at the Park Hyatt, Krishnamoorthy brings in $2,500 a month after taxes. But after budgeting $1,250 for rent, $700 for groceries, $300 for cable and Internet and $250 for clothing, he’s left with nothing.

Krishnamoorthy begins his day at 7 a.m. and sometimes gets a few hours off in the evening to spend time with his 14-year-old son, Sanjay, and 7-year-old daughter, Shivaani, but usually he runs from one job to the other and gets home around midnight.

“What else can I do? You have to work two jobs just to survive,” he said. “Even though it’s safer here in Canada, you’re not happy because you’re not making enough money to support your family.”

Ontario was the only province in Canada where the number of jobs that pay $10 an hour or less increased in the last decade.

“The distinction between a minimum wage and living wage is survival,” CCPA research associate Hugh MacKenzie said at a news conference. “A living wage is what’s required to participate in the economic, political, social and cultural life of the community. It’s a standard of living that enables people to avoid marginalization.”

MacKenzie said the need for a reliable car, Internet access, child care and unexpected health expenses are considered in the quality of life.

Jim Stanford, an economist who co-wrote the report, said the government needs to nurture higher-paying jobs.

---

Alex,

“But after budgeting $1,250 for rent, $700 for groceries, $300 for cable and Internet and $250 for clothing, he’s left with nothing.”

Your story shows exactly what we have been talking about!!  $1,250 for rent, for a ‘public housing apartment’, what do ‘high priced’ rents go for”?  $300.00/mo. for cable and internet, (I pay $85.00 a month for those things), and, those are surely necessities, aren’t they?  $250.00/mo. for clothing, that’s $3,000.00 a year, don’t they ever wash their clothes and wear them again?  Either the ‘cost of living’ in Canada, is sky high, or these people are living well above the average American!!  I’ve got a great idea to help them stretch their dollar, “Start shopping at Wal-Mart”, that way they could cut back on their ‘food and clothing’ bills!!

I’ll ask anyone out there, do any of you pay $1,250.00 a month for public housing, $300.00 a month for cable and internet, and $250.00 a month for clothes, or even $700.00 a month for food and think you are ‘poor’?

Toronto is a very expensive city like New York, Paris, London etc. I do admit that I pay no where what these people do with their cable/internet. I think I would axe those fairly quickly. Point is you would have to live under a bridge on what Walmart pays people (and others). If they don’t start paying people more of what they are worth then the minimum wage has got to go higher. Face the facts. Walmarts workers share of living expense is just ending up in your Waltons family wallets. $16.60 is the wage people need. Not $9 full time with 32 hours a week.

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
G A T I N E A U
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart worker Abuse

Alex, If you were running your own business, would you pay each employee based on their individual needs or would you pay them based on the value they provide?

“$16.60 is the wage people NEED. Not $9 full time with 32 hours a week. “

As Min Wage rises, so do cost of goods.  Raising min wage is not the solution to raising quality of life.  People who are not happy with the wages they are earning should work harder for a better paying job that holds more value then the one they are in.  Get an education or learn a new trade.

Asking for min wage increase is a lazy request that will not resolve in an improved quality of life.

What you “need” is a perception! Live with less to survive!
“$700” a month on Groceries! =T-bone Steak, Lobster & Ale every night. 
$250 - a month for clothing- = a new suit every month!
$300- a month for Cable & internet- at that cost I’d do with out! (thats $550 a month extra if your “charactrer” gets off his high horse & budgets)

The hotels your “character” works at probably provide a meal during the full time shift he works!

Sounds like your “character” wants to live the life of the “Rich & Famous” on a working mans budget! His thought process is out of whack- He must be a liberal! Or the story is a bunch of B/S from the liberal TWLIGHT ZONE!
Probably Both!

“People who are not happy with the wages they are earning should work harder for a better paying job that holds more value then the one they are in. Get an education or learn a new trade.”

That’s all fine and well. People do need incentives in order to ensure growth and posterity. That said however your argument doesn’t float, either.

Get an education and a real job. Right, go pay for my tuition to do so. You won’t shell out a minimum $50,000 U.S. for education to be oh say a psychologist, or maybe a mechanic? Then how do you expect me to fork that out?

Education isn’t free. It reminds me of a time trying to apply for a position in a welding shop. I’d taken two years of welding in high school, was a fair welder but not certified as the tests cost for administrative fees and such. The shop owner looked at me, “sorry, we’re a closed shop. I can only hire you if you got thirty years experience.”

How can you get experience if no one lets you work?

So you get both knees chopped out from under you. They won’t free up education for the more refined work, and won’t open the shops for the grunt labor. In between you got the service industry or factories, either one eats you alive for nothing in return at the end of the day.

Presently, I work in a factory at a little over $11 per hour. We just do get bills paid. I’m 36, and now on antidepressants, living at home with mom because it makes financial sense to pool resources. Oh, and just look we’ve got the mother of all Depressions on the horizon.

“work harder for a better paying job that holds more value then the one they are in” Screw that. We’re already doing the best we can just to survive. How are we to try getting educated when ‘mass’r’ has us tied to the grindstone?

Luxuries? We spend about $25 a month on Netflix. The internet runs about $10 through an ‘el cheapo’ dial-up, you can’t get cable out in the country. I smoke ‘el cheapo’ brand cigarettes at around $23 a carton, and do try to squeeze a carton for two weeks. The wife likes her crochet and needlecraft, seldom buys a book here or there.

We don’t live beyond our means. We do value luxuries for what they are, cherished treats. Could we go without them? Probably. But we see no reason to, yet. That will probably change.

It’s bad when hope is the only commodity everyone has in surplus. Hope doesn’t set the dinner table, only lets you have Neverland supper.

The time for a guaranteed basic income is now. Such a system in place would have profound impact. And I think it would be workable, though just a poor, humble, uneducated country mouse here.

Incentives are great when you start with a fair playing field. Trouble is the field has never been fair. Why not risk seeing what happens if it is made so? Oh, wait ... you get Wal-Mart. Duh.

And me and the wife do not shop at Wal-Mart unless it is of dire need. We truly hate buying non-durable durable goods such as lawn mowers there. good mower ought to last at least a decade, longer if cared for properly. Wal-Mart mowers are lucky to see a year tops even with pampering care.

“Quick, go waste another $100 for a new mower!”

“Sorry, got to pay medical this week. We’ll get a new mower next ... um, I’ll get back to you.”

What is disposable income?

Did anyone on this board ever see a house burn to the ground? You might say “Oh, its too bad someone didn’t act sooner and call the fire department...” That’s what is happening right now in the United States. It started burning years ago and the Wal-Mart’s business model lit the match. Its such a shame too… We had such a nice house.

“Alex, If you were running your own business, would you pay each employee based on their individual needs or would you pay them based on the value they provide? ~Big Tex in Rogers

Big Tex
Based on your statement above, do the Men, Women and Children of China, who provide your Walmart with their ‘roll back’ cost prices....” would you pay each employee based on their individual needs or would you pay them based on the value they provide?”

If you could force your fellow Americans to life off pennies an hour wages, with a take it or leave it attitude...would you do that to?

Do you visit your local food bank or soup kitchen and stand on your stool and tell them to make something of themselves.?

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
G A T I N E A U
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart worker Abuse

Alex, You did not answer my question

I will answer yours though:
- I would only pay based on the value they provide.

- No-one in America is forced to work for pennies… Every American is just a free as the next.  We all have the same opportunities though many are too dumb or lazy to realize that.  ex:  Ben in Timberville is whining about the consequences of the poor decisions he made early in life.  $11 an hour at 36 Ben???  Way to apply yourself.

- I don’t visit the local foodbank but I do tell that to the bums on the side of the road.  Nothing angers me more than to see an able body begging for handouts when there is plenty of work available.

Now Alex, to repeat my question:  If you were running your own business, would you pay each employee based on their individual needs or would you pay them based on the value they provide?

and as a follow up I will add, How will you determine each individuals needs?

Now Alex, to repeat my question:  If you were running your own business, would you pay each employee based on their individual needs or would you pay them based on the value they provide?.....and as a follow up I will add, How will you determine each individuals needs?~Big Tex in Rogers
Society should pay a fair wage. It is not an individual issue. If companies are not going to do it then the minimum wage must be raised by the governments.

If you could force your fellow Americans to life off pennies an hour wages, with a take it or leave it attitude...would you do that to?~Alex
I will answer yours though:
- I would only pay based on the value they provide~Big Tex in Rogers

“- I don’t visit the local foodbank but I do tell that to the bums on the side of the road.  Nothing angers me more than to see an able body begging for handouts when there is plenty of work available.~Big Tex in Rogers
Is there such a thing as the working poor Big Tex?

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
G A T I N E A U
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart worker Abuse

Alex,

“Toronto is a very expensive city like New York, Paris, London etc.”

Do you know WHY these cities are so expensive?  “High incomes”, that’s why!!  Cost of living, is based on the average income of the citizens, it’s a process called “What the market will bear”!!  In other words, for example, if a landlord has a 2 bedroom apartment to rent, he will offer it at a price people can ‘afford’, if his rent is too high, he will get no renters and will have to lower the rent!!  Now, if the average income of the area rises, there will be more people who CAN afford a higher rent, therefore the landlord will raise the rent, as much as ‘the market will bear’!!

The problem with YOUR and others arguements, is that when you raise the wages of one group of people, it puts pressure on everyone else in the area, who will see their ‘cost of living’ rise!!  And, as the ‘cost of living’ rises, NEED rises, leading to a constant circle of wage raises, ‘cost of living’ increase, etc., etc., etc.!!  That cycle, is exactly why some cities are so much more expensive than others!!  How ‘high’ are people supposed to allow this cycle to run, untill an apartment rents for $12,000/month and a hamburger costs $50.00?  It has to STOP somewhere or at least slows down, Wal-Mart is helping to level out things!!

Ben,

“Education isn’t free.”

It sure is, it’s called ‘On The Job Training’!!  How do you get it?  Most companies are willing to train eager employees!!  Get a job with upward mobility prospects, start at the bottom, and work your way up the ladder, applying for better positions along the way!!  To do this, first, you have to ‘Ditch’ the attitude and second, ‘Look for job postings and show management, that you are a ‘good’ and ‘reliable’ worker, willing to put forth the effort to learn and advance!!

“How can you get experience if no one lets you work?”

You said you have a job at a factory, use the advice above and you will gain EXPERIENCE, that you can take to other jobs, where you can gain more EXPERIENCE!!  Anyone who thinks they can just walk into a company and say “I want a top notch job”, with ZERO experience, and expect to get the job, is fooling themselves!!  You has to pay your dues, son!!

“How are we to try getting educated when ‘mass’r’ has us tied to the grindstone?”

Typical ‘victim’ speak!!  The old, “The ‘man’ won’t let me get ahead, so why even try?  Poor me!”!!

Alex,

“The first contract raised pay from a minimum of $8.50 to a new minimum of $11.54. The new top rate was $15.25.” ~ The Ottawa Citizen on Gatineau tire and lube shop closing.

Think of it this way, the contract raised pay, by $3.04 an hour!!  Let’s say there were 10 employees in the T&L;Dept., somehow, Wal-Mart would have to generate $30.40 MORE ‘profit’, every hour, to cover the raises, do you believe that they could do that without raising prices?  Were those employees going to push more cars through each day?  And, if they did rush to get more out, how confident would YOU be, to have people ‘rushing’ your car service?

“Raymond Potvin, another customer, said, “they gave me a good price last week”

Do you think Raymond would have been happy to hear, he would have to pay a few bucks MORE than he was quoted ‘last week’?

“Keep in mind this happened yesterday, after the end of mowing season (here). No, they were not recalls, the pattern of destroying and dumping seasonal wares is de rigeur for this walmart (at least). A “remainder mark” is somthing done to books/media routinely, and it ensures such items can’t be returned for credit. We can be quite certain it isn’t beyond the capability of a chain store to do likewise. “

This is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard.  You’re story just doesn’t jive with the facts.  First of all if it was just end of season merchandise it would either be returned to the warehouse or clearanced.  Lawn mowers are always clearanced at the end of the season since they are usually not returnable to the warehouse.  Your story defies common sense in this regard.  Walmart, a company out to make a profit, would never destroy something that it could sell. A lawnmower, even at the end of the season would sell at half price which is more than they would get for throwing it in the dumpster.  The other problem with your story is every Walmart I have ever seen has a compactor and only uses dumpsters occassionally to get rid of old fixtures.  Compactors make dumpster diving extremely difficult and would make it so they don’t need to destroy the merchandise since compactors do a fine job of destroying stuff.  Either your story is completely made up or the merchandise is stuff that has been returned and is unsellabe. If the lawnmower was returned because it was defective then there is good reason to make it unusable since it is not beyond belief to imagine a lawsuit where someone stole something from Walmart’s garbage and ends up suing when they end up hurting themselves.

Wal-Mart saves consumers a lot of money.  I am glad they are in the United States.  If they run someone out of business, tough luck.  Find a way to compete or find another profession, maybe even a job at Wal-Mart.

Also, we would be a lot better off if there were no minimum wage, free trade, and no workers unions.

“Wal-Mart saves consumers a lot of money.  I am glad they are in the United States.  If they run someone out of business, tough luck.  Find a way to compete or find another profession, maybe even a job at Wal-Mart.
Also, we would be a lot better off if there were no minimum wage, free trade, and no workers unions."~ben in iowa

Interesting ben in iowa. How will you feel if your Walmart is sold to foreign owners (like some emerging group in China)? You will have a foreign retailer (it might as well be now the way they behave), selling foreign goods while it has depleted American manufacturing business.

we would be a lot better off if there were no minimum wage, free trade, and no workers unions.

“we would be a lot better off if there were no minimum wage, free trade, and no workers unions."~ben in iowa

How would Americans be better off with No minimum wage or workers unions?

How would your fellow citizens (like RDS, Dave, Big Tex, Ken W. etc be better off with NO free trade??

Alex,

“How would Americans be better off with No minimum wage or workers unions?”

First off, as for minimum wage, the fact is, almost NOBODY makes minimum wage, even in non-union businesses, even McDonalds pays more than minimum wage!!  Second, where would GM, Ford and Chrysler be today, if they hadn’t had to pay almost 3 times as much as most other factories do, for labor?  You cannot ‘compete’ in the ‘global market’, when wages in an industry are through the roof!!  Third, is the impact on the economy, when people who make $15.00/hour, have to pay ‘high prices + interest on loans’, to support people who make $35.00/hour, for doing the same type of work!!  Think about it, 20 years ago, to buy a ‘new’ car, you took out a 3 year loan, now it takes a 6 year loan!!  And car payments were about $195/mo. then, now they are about $350/mo.!!  People can blame management all they want, but labor costs are labor costs, no matter how you slice it!!  And, now the auto companies are facing bankruptsy unless they get their government ‘bailout’, is the UAW willing to give concessions to ‘save’ the company and their jobs?  They said they might be willing to look at it in 2010!!  In fact, the UAW president recently bragged in a news conference, how some woman retiree, was happy to recieve her ‘bonus’, from her retirement plan!!

You, looking at things from a worker’s point of view, may think getting constant raises in wages is ‘good’, but, if you look at it from an world economic point of view, you would see that we have been slowly killing ourselves, through ever rising ‘inflation’!!  For every $1.00/hr. raise in pay you get, you will end up spending $1.25/hr. MORE to buy the same things you did before the raise!!  In an economy, everything is ‘linked’ together, your raise, will hurt someone else and their raise will hurt YOU!!  That is why people constantly NEED more money, every year!!

...we have been slowly killing ourselves, through ever rising ‘inflation’!!

Your memory is selectively short, RDS. Wages have remained flat for a decade to control inflation but guess what? “Ever rising ‘inflation’” occurred anyway.

Two of the most prolonged eras of prosperity in this country came when there was a balance between capital and labor or when we had slavery.

Which economic model should we repeat?

I don’t think someone getting a good deal on toilet paper at Walmart is, through their purchase, endorsing Walmart’s business practices. ~ Greg Spotts

Bob(RDS)

Tell me something. What percent of a cars sticker price is the cost of labour?

R E M E M B E R
J O N Q U I E R E
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
J A C K S O N V I L L E
T E X A S
Home of Walmart Worker Abuse

R E M E M B E R
G A T I N E A U
Q U E B E C
Home of Walmart worker Abuse

Ken V,

“Wages have remained flat for a decade to control inflation”

So, are you saying that NOBODY has gotten any raises in the last 10 years?

Alex,

“Tell me something. What percent of a cars sticker price is the cost of labour?”

It’s hard to say, because any figure you might find, would be based on ONLY Auto workers wages, but, labor costs are also added to everything used in the auto industry, including componants, parts, electricity, gas, water, supplies, transportation, new machines and tools, etc.!!  If I had to guess, all things considered, labor adds up to at least 50% of the sticker price!! 

Take a piece of steel used in a car hood, first, there is labor to make the equipment used to mine the ore, labor to mine the ore, labor to melt the ore into steel, and labor to form the steel into a car hood, that’s lots of labor along the way, before it even gets to the car manufacturer!!  And, that doesn’t even consider the labor wages paid for transportation, paperwork, maintenence, etc., etc., etc.!!

Let me re-word the question. What percent of a cars sticker price is the cost of labour from Ford, Chrysler or GM?

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So, are you saying that NOBODY has gotten any raises in the last 10 years?

I’m always baffled by your inability to understand even basic English. Try rereading my post and see if I said “NOBODY” has gotten a raise. Your lack of cognition doesn’t alter reality except in your own mind.

The Investor Class got plenty of raises but I was referring to the Working Class. You know, labor.

NINE YEARS OF NEGLECT:
Federal Minimum Wage Remains Unchanged for Ninth Straight Year, Falls to Lowest Level in More than Half a Century

http://www.cbpp.org/8-31-06mw.htm

What’s good for Wal-Mart is BAD for America!

Republican “Class Warfare”

In his excellent new book, The Squandering of America: How the Failure of our Politics Undermines our Prosperity, Robert Kuttner writes:

“Between 2000 and 2006, the productivity of American workers increased by 19 percent. But the total increase in the wages paid to all 124 million non-supervisory workers was less than $200 million in six years—a raise of $1.60 PER worker—NOT $1.60 per hours BUT a grand total of one dollar and sixty cents in higher wages PER worker over nearly SIX years! Labor market researcher Andrew Sum of the Northeastern University Center for Labor Market Studies COMPARES the $200 million FOR WORKERS to the $38 billion paid in BONUSES ALONE by the TOP FIVE Wall Street firms during the same period.” (Kuttner, p. 21)
For many years now scholars and journalists including Robert Kuttner, Kevin Phillips, William Greider, Barbara Ehrenreich, Noami Klein, and others have provided a mountain of data showing that Republican Party rule has produced greater INEQUALITY in America, and that Republican class war policies HAVE ENRICHED THE FEW AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MANY. With the current economic meltdown millions of Americans might be starting to wake up to the new reality brought on by years of unbridled GREED MASQUERADING AS ECONOMIC POLICY.
!Deep inside the engine of our capitalist economy is a powerful incentive for the owners of society’s productive forces to do everything in their power to discipline labor and to push workers’ wages down as low as possible. This imperative manifests itself in the form of crushing labor unions, outsourcing jobs to low-wage countries, exploiting immigrant workers, slashing social programs that benefit low-income people, and silencing the collective strength of working-class people generally. Beginning with Reaganomics, through Rubinomics, and on to Bush’s Kleptonomics, the Republican Party, (and its enablers inside the Clintonite Democratic Leadership Council), have set the economic agenda. They have been gleefully dancing on the heads of working people in this country for decades.

This class warfare directed against the average working American with the aim of holding down wages contradicts the necessity for capitalism to sell goods and services to these same cash-strapped workers. In other words, when capital succeeds in keeping wages low (especially in times of increased labor productivity) it constricts consumption and eventually produces crisis. [cont.]

Kuttner writes:

“The prices of things that enable Americans to be middle class have been rising far faster than average prices. Official inflation statistics understate the real cost of living. Young Americans are increasingly reliant on the unequal wealth of their families of origin. The time squeeze on families has increased the stress of raising children in an era with two working parents and no new social supports. And, quite apart from incomes stagnating, new forms of economic insecurity have increased, such as dwindling health care and pension coverage. . . . [T]he costs of college education, housing, and medical care have greatly outpaced wages and average prices. It just happens that the prices that have risen most steeply are those of the big items that signal entry into the middle class.” (Kuttner, pp. 22-23)
Add to these rising costs for the average working American the shredding of the social safety net, the Department of Labor turned into a union-busting institution, and President George W. Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations and his vetoing of social legislation such as the S-CHIPS children’s health benefit, and we see the Republican class war at its ugliest.~~~~~~~~~Joseph Palermo,Huffington Post,January 23,2008~~~~~~~~~~NOTE: This article was written over six months BEFORE the $700 Bn Wall Street heist/bailout, and the election of a new Democratic President,including significant losses by the GOP in MANY,MANY Senate and House seats this November.

Alex in Quebec: Re: U S automakers bailout/lifeline-A here to fore, unheard voice will begin lobbying DC this week in favor of Federal assisstance to the Big Three-by none other than Nascar,who is the recipient of millions from Detroit,yearly.

Ken V,

“Try rereading my post and see if I said “NOBODY” has gotten a raise.”

Sorry, but I understand the word ‘flat’, as used in your post, would mean NO raises in pay!!  Now, if you had said ‘relatively flat’, that could be read as just a small amount of raises!!

“Federal Minimum Wage Remains Unchanged for Ninth Straight Year, Falls to Lowest Level in More than Half a Century”

I thought I heard that the Democratic Congress just passed some Federal Minimum Wage increases just a few years ago!!  Also, a half a century ago, the minimum wage was $1.25 an hour, does this statement mean that the minimum wage is now lower than $1.25 an hour?  But, like I said before, hardly anybody works for the ‘minimum wage’!!

BTW:  What do you think the ‘minimum wage’ should be?

...if you had said ‘relatively flat’

You, sir, are a blithering idiot. (and I mean that in the nicest possible way:o)

Live Better In Cheap Underwear

Ken V,

“You, sir, are a blithering idiot. (and I mean that in the nicest possible way:o)”

I’m sure it sounds that way, to a person who has trouble understanding ‘simple’ concepts and is so ‘driven’, they use twisted concepts in order to distort ‘reality’ to fit their illogical ‘perceptions’!!

I guess I’m gonna have to admit it, RDS. My use of the word ‘flat’ in respect to wages is wrong.

Wages haven’t been flat. They’ve been losing ground.

CEP News) - U.S. wage growth couldn’t keep up with the pace of inflation as real earnings declined 1.0%, according to a report released Wednesday from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Ken V,

“Wages haven’t been flat. They’ve been losing ground.”

Wrong again, ‘wages’ have NOT been losing ground, they may not be keeping up with inflation, but, that is a completely different thing!!  Actual ‘wages’ have raised, it is ‘real earnings’ that have declined!!

“U.S. wage growth couldn’t keep up with the pace of inflation as real earnings declined 1.0%,”

Just another ‘good’ reason for shopping at Wal-Mart, they make a dollar’s value stretch and help bridge the gap caused by inflation!!  I thought I explained a couple of times, how inflation, can be higher than wage raises!!

..they may not be keeping up with inflation, but, that is a completely different thing!!

No, it’s not.

The Walmart mentality propagates the idea that more crap will make us happy. ~ Phil Butler

Kenv,

“No, it’s not.”

Let me try to explain it, so even a ‘caveman’ should be able to understand!!

Let’s say that you had 2 children and let’s call them ‘future inflation’ and you have 2 cars, call them ‘wages’!!  Now, your first child becomes of ‘driving age’ [higher inflation], and you get him a car (now you have 3 cars [higher wages], then your second child becomes of ‘driving age’ [higher inflation], but you don’t get another car for him, does that mean that you now have LESS cars [wages] than you started with, (you started with 2 and you now have 3)?  Just because you didn’t get a 4th car, for that 2nd child [inflation], doesn’t mean you haven’t increased your number of cars [wages]!!

You can try to use ‘misleading’ statements, BUT SOME OF US CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH THEM!!

The point you seem to miss, is that ‘wages’ have been rising over the years, but, the ability of people to keep up has been steadily declining!!  Why is this?  Because, while you tend to focus on Wal-Mart’s employees getting raises, you fail to see the ‘millions’ of other workers getting ‘raises’ too, which reduces the buying power of the raises Wal-Mart employees would get, so they would be no better off!!  Cutting inflation across the board, (which is what Wal-Mart does best by keeping prices low and causing others to do the same), deals more with an employees ‘bottom line’, than any wage raise they may get!!  Auto workers, are a ‘good’ example, of a group that kept getting ‘higher and higher wages’ and inflicted financial pain on everyone who wasn’t getting those same ‘high increases’!!

“A penny SAVED, is a penny EARNED” ~ Ben Franklin

AIG, Citibank and a number of other federally bailed-out financial institutions have no plans to cancel hundreds of millions of dollars in sports team sponsorships, even as they take billions in taxpayer support, ABC News has found.

In boom times, the sponsorships were seen as a way to advertise the firms’ “brands” and appeal to potential customers. Even today, at least one bank told ABC News that a naming deal was increasing its revenue. But critics, including a member of Congress, say the decision to continue them now is hard to defend.

Struggling Citibank just sealed a multi-billion-dollar emergency “backstop” deal with the U.S. government. The financial behemoth, suffering with billions in bad mortgage-related assets on its books, recently shed 53,000 workers and saw its stock price lose over half its value. Yet it’s in a 20-year contract to pay the New York Mets $400 million to name the team’s new stadium “Citi Field.”

“This type of spending is indefensible and unacceptable to Citigroup’s new partner and largest investor: the American taxpayer,” said Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., in a statement Monday.~~~~~~~~~~~~ABC News via FDL~~~~NOTE: I see NO pennies either saved NOR earned in this scenario.

Society should pay a fair wage. It is not an individual issue. If companies are not going to do it then the minimum wage must be raised by the governments. Alex in Ontario, Canada

Alex, If you raise min wage you raise the cost of goods thus off setting the value of the raise.  You start a business to make a profit.  If the government makes you increase your employees wages then you simple have to increase the cost of your product or services. 

So with a min wage increase people will be taking home more money but they will also be paying more for food, rent, clothing, car, gas etc.

A fair wage is paying someone what they are worth to your business.  If you are paying someone more than they are earning for you then how do you keep your doors open???  Ask the auto industry???  With a gov bail out???

So what I am hearing from Big Tex is that people have little worth.

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Alex: All we are to them is livestock...to wit:"OUR IMPULSES ARE BEING MISDIRECTED. We live in an artificially-induced state of consciousness. The movement began…by a group of scientists…accidentally discovered these signals being sent. The under-class is growing. Human rights are non-existent. In their repressive society, we are their unwitting accomplices. Their intention to rule rests with the annihilation of consciousness. We have been lulled into a trance. They have made us indifferent. We are focused only on our own gain. They are safe as long as they are not discovered. That is their method of survival. Keep us asleep. Keep us selfish. Keep us sedated. We are their cattle. We are being bred for slavery. We cannot break their signal. The signal must be shut off at the source. They want benign indifference. All we really are is livestock.” -----------------------------

Alex,

“So what I am hearing from Big Tex is that people have little worth.”

If that’s what you are hearing, then I suggest, that you get your hearing checked!!  Big Tex, didn’t say people have ‘little worth’, he said that people should get paid based on the value of their labor to the business they work for!! 

People’s worth and the worth of their labor, are two different things, a person’s worth, is not determined on how much money they earn!!  Does getting a raise in pay, make someone a ‘better’ person and therefore, ‘worth more’?  If what you are saying is true, that a person’s worth is based on how much money he earns, then the worth of a ‘rich man’, must be way higher than that of a ‘poor man’, right?  And, if that is true, then each is getting paid, exactly what they are worth!!

“People’s worth and the worth of their labor, are two different things, a person’s worth, is not determined on how much money they earn!!"~Bob(RDS)

Help me to understand. So the deep souths slave trade was not a reflection of the black persons worth, but they were just a victim of ‘Market Values’ of the time?

Just some more Bullshit Baffles Brains from Bob(RDS).

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Alex,

“Help me to understand. So the deep souths slave trade was not a reflection of the black persons worth, but they were just a victim of ‘Market Values’ of the time?”

I’ll try to help you understand, but it is up to you to think it out, okay?

One thing you have to understand, is that back in that time period, black slaves were not considered PEOPLE, but rather PROPERTY and they were given NO HUMAN WORTH other than the worth people were willing to pay for them, based on how much work the new owners thought they could get out of them, what you call “Market Value”!!  Slaves, had NO power to sell their labor, only their owners did!!  Fortunately, blacks (African Americans), now have the power to increase their labor value through education and can ‘compete’ in the modern workplace!!

All people have the same ‘human worth’ as human beings, unless they degrade it with anti social behavior, but not all people have the same ‘Labor Worth’!!

#All people have the same ‘human worth’ as human beings, unless they degrade it with anti social behavior, but not all people have the same ‘Labor Worth’!!"~RDS(Bob)

So if we break down the definition of what ‘human worth’ is, what would we see?

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Alex,

“So if we break down the definition of what ‘human worth’ is, what would we see?”

It all breaks down to this: “Everyone has the opportunity (human worth), to make of their lives, what they choose to put forth the effort to achieve”!! 

In other words, the ability of a ‘poor’ child, (like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama), to work his way up to the office of President of the United States!! 

But, if you CHOOSE to ‘goof off in school’, ‘dropout’ and then choose to not work and live a life in ‘poverty’, you will still be considered a ‘human’, but your ‘labor worth’ will be diminished!!

I have always been fascinated by how liberals are ‘anti-slavery’, yet they want the government to become their ‘Master’!!

RDS:"but your ‘labor worth’ will be diminished!! “~~~~NOTE:
With your thirst and ambition for worldly riches, why didn’t YOU go to college instead of drive a truck? Just wonderin’.

ddrb,

“With your thirst and ambition for worldly riches, why didn’t YOU go to college instead of drive a truck? Just wonderin’.”

First, where did you get the idea that I had a ‘thirst and ambition for worldly riches’?  All I have ever wanted, was to provide for my family, remanin within my budget limits, keep my DEBT low, and make sure my family’s lives would be secure!!  Being able to retire ‘early’ was a ‘bonus’ from working hard and financially doing things right, even without going to college!!  My family has always come first in my life, that is why I have been married to the same woman for almost 45 years!!

Why didn’t I go to ‘college’?  Two reasons:  First, I couldn’t ‘afford’ it (I came from a ‘poor’ family of 7 kids), and second, I had a family to ‘support’ and going to college, doesn’t provide a ‘paycheck’, it ‘costs’ money to go there!!  Besides, not everybody needs to go to college, many people I have worked with and even supervised, went to college and weren’t any better off than I was!!  Going to College doesn’t guarantee you will get a ‘good’ job!!

waaagh war warhammer online

me and my wife and son when to wal mart my son saw a toy in action alley 11/26/08 he played with toy while we was shoping so we figed we would get for him we went to the check out to pay for it and it wouldn’t ring up then the lady came over and jerked it away from my 3year old sons hands and said that we can’t have it because it wasn’t black friday but they had it on the sale for 20.00 dollars and made my son cry for about 1 hour because he really wanted it i was mad what can i do about this

RDS: LOTS of poor people have gone to college. Ever hear of Pell grants? Night classes? With all your talk about “pulling oneself up by the bootstraps”, don’t “pee on my leg and tell me its raining” about being too poor to get an education.Seems that would have provided more for your family.They allow women into colleges,too.

First we read the following from Bob(RDS):
“People’s worth and the worth of their labor, are two different things, a person’s worth, is not determined on how much money they earn!!"~Bob(RDS)

Yet when we ask for his definition of ‘people’s worth’ this is what we end up with:
“"It all breaks down to this: “Everyone has the opportunity (human worth), to make of their lives, what they choose to put forth the effort to achieve”!!
In other words, the ability of a ‘poor’ child, (like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama), to work his way up to the office of President of the United States!!
But, if you CHOOSE to ‘goof off in school’, ‘dropout’ and then choose to not work and live a life in ‘poverty’, you will still be considered a ‘human’, but your ‘labor worth’ will be diminished!!"~Bob(RDS)

So human worth according to Bob(RDS) has nothing to do with how much they make. Yet his definition has everything to do with how much of a financial success they are in life.
Bullshit Baffles Brains again from Bob(RDS).

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ddrb,

So, according to you, if I didn’t go to college, there must be something wrong with me, I wasn’t allowed to have any Choice in the matter, right?  Tell me, did YOU go to college?  If you did, what do you do for a living, that puts you on a higher level than me?  Many people can ‘pull themselves up by the bootstraps’, without going to college!!  Like I said, all I cared about, was making enough money to ‘support’ my family and I did that, I never said I was trying to become a Billionaire!!

Alex,

“So human worth according to Bob(RDS) has nothing to do with how much they make.”

You are right, I did said, that ‘human worth’, has NOTHING to with how much one makes!!  Do the people in China, making $.40/hour, have ‘human worth’ to you?  Or, do they need to make more money per hour to gain ‘human worth’ from you?

“Yet his definition has everything to do with how much of a financial success they are in life.”

You are mixing them up again, ‘Labor worth’ has to do with how much financial success they have in life and has NOTHING to do with ‘human worth’!!

You are trying SO HARD to make ‘human worth’ and ‘labor worth’ mean the SAME THING, that you can’t and aparently WON’T try to see the difference!!

Let me try this one:  Does a baby have ‘human worth’?  How much ‘labor worth’ does a baby have?  As a ‘human being’, it has ‘human worth’ to both it’s parents and society, but it has NO ‘labor worth’, because it can’t perform work or earn a living, because it has NO ‘labor’ skills!!

RDS: The infants of those born into slavery have infinte labor worth.They are the next generation of slave labor and indentured servitude, not to mention cannon fodder.

RDS: I wonder how much “worth” that unborn child who was aborted by shopping stampede at WalMart this AM has,had?

ddrb,

“wonder how much “worth” that unborn child who was aborted by shopping stampede at WalMart this AM has,had?”

I’ll tell you what I was told when my son was ‘killed’, The Legal System, said that a ‘child’, has NO ‘Labor Worth’, until they become EMPLOYED and are ‘earning a living’!!  And, their ‘human worth’ was $2,500.00 (that was back in 1974 - in Wisconsin), so it is probably more now!!

RDS: So is that the entire amount[$2500] you were paid by the drunk driver and/or the insurance company for the entire settlement regarding your son’s death?

ddrb,

“So is that the entire amount[$2500] you were paid by the drunk driver and/or the insurance company for the entire settlement regarding your son’s death?”

We got ZERO from the drunk driver (all he paid was a $200.00 fine for the DUI), we got $2,500.00 from his insurance company and $2,000.00 from a life insurance policy we had on our kids, which paid for the funeral!!  So, to answer your question, YES $2,500.00 was all we got for his life!!

RDS, sorry to hear about your child.  I hope the person responsible is still serving time in prison.  No money paid to you and your family could possible compensate you for what you lost.  Human worth is immeasurable (except to Alex and ddrb).

Your case above on the difference between human worth and labor worth is spelled out very well. The fact that Alex and ddrb are refusing to understand it gives us great insight into what type of Walmart detractors are posting on this site.

Alex, I would like to say “nice try” on attempting to twist my words to mean I’m saying “people have little worth” but I cant because it was a pathetic attempt.  After RDS’s follow-ups you should even feel embarrassed.

“Human worth is immeasurable (except to Alex and ddrb)."~Big Tex

Support that statement with facts.
The rest of your writing is only worth the humour you provide for yourself and Bob(RDS).

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Big Tex,

“RDS, sorry to hear about your child.”

Thanks, but this happened in 1974, when he was 8, in Wisconsin, long before I moved to Arkansas!!

“I hope the person responsible is still serving time in prison.”

This guy, never even spent a DAY in jail, (all he got was a $200.00 fine for DUI), even though he was so drunk he didn’t even KNOW he had hit my son, and didn’t stop, the police picked him up at a bar down the road, they did not find him at fault and instead blamed my son!!  Kind of like how some people here want to blame Wal-Mart for what the customers did!!

Alex,

“Support that statement with facts.”

If you need FACTS to explain to you, that ‘Human worth is immeasurable’, then you don’t have much feelings for mankind!!  Maybe that is why it seems the only people you think have ‘human worth’, are North American Union Workers!!

Do you need Facts to understand that your mother’s ‘human worth’ is immeasurable?  Or, do you judge her worth to you, on how much money she earns, her ‘Labor Worth’?

The only one’s I know of who think like YOU do, are the type of people who flew the planes into the twin towers, or people who ‘kill’ others, without remorse, as they think others have NO ‘human worth’, too!!

Alex,

“The rest of your writing is only worth the humour you provide for yourself and Bob(RDS).”

So, you think the death of my son was humorous!!  Guess you really don’t have any feelings or a heart!!

“The only one’s I know of who think like YOU do, are the type of people who flew the planes into the twin towers, or people who ‘kill’ others, without remorse, as they think others have NO ‘human worth’, too!!”

RDS in continual WalMart worship mode
Tuesday, December 02 at 01:52 AM

Time for another ‘wake the hell up’ effort to get through to RDS hypocrisy with cemetery ground penetrating radar-

In 1989, Alice Walton killed a 50-year-old pedestrian mother of two, in an automobile accident in Springdale, Arkansas. Although Walton was speeding, and had been been ticketed multiple times over the previous year for reckless driving incidents, no charges were filed in connection to the 1989 fatality. In 1996, Walton was cited for driving while intoxicated and fined $925.