Wal-Mart: Always Backpedaling. Always.

What about Frank Costanza’s Festivus? If Wal-Mart wants to be truly inclusive, they should honor that holiday as well.

I don’t understand how WMW can call this backpedaling, as many “associates’ have said that this was not a company policy, except for the phone operators.

Is it backpedaling, when WMW makes an issue of something that doesn’t exist and Wal-Mart tries to clear up the misconception?  Just another example of WMW twisting things to make something out of nothing!!!

This item is a win-win situation for “walmartwatch”. If Wal-Mart allows associates to say “Merry Christmas”, they can be attacked for not respecting diversity. If they do not allow their asociates to say “Merry Christmas”, they can be attacked for disregarding American tradition.

Does anyone, anywhere, use their best judgment and say: ‘Happy Three Kings Day’ ?

Christmas was made a US Federal Holiday in 1870, signed into Law by President Ulysees S. Grant.

Now I understand that there has been a movement for years by Secular Progressives (the very Far-Left Liberals, the ACLU, and other groups) to have Christmas abolished as a Federal Holiday. It will not happen without a fight!  Itis the same with THANKSGIVING! There is the Religious and Spiritual connection to a Diety.

Why do we celebrate Christmas? To commemerate the birth of the Savior, Jesus Christ. There is no X in Christmas!

Christmas has become more of a Secular event in the promotion and excessive buying of gifts, decorations, parties, etc. I am not saying that is all bad! But if people are in the stores to buy CHRISTMAS PRESENTS at this time of the calander year, then “Mery Christmas” is an appropriate saying.  Using one’s judgement is best however in greeting customers not personally known to a Cashier, Greeter, etc.  I was in the Retail business long enough to learn that particular observation.

jc wrote:

“ This item is a win-win situation for “walmartwatch”. If Wal-Mart allows associates to say “Merry Christmas”, they can be attacked for not respecting diversity. If they do not allow their asociates to say “Merry Christmas”, they can be attacked for disregarding American tradition. “

I think the Wal-Mart, “Best Judgement” policy, nulifies this win-win situation.  It becomes a policy that promotes no single greeting.  As for the operators, as the operator has no idea of who is on the phone upon answering, the ‘Happy Holidays’ greeting should not be offensive to anybody, as it puts no emphisis on any certain religion.

Kathy wrote:

“ But if people are in the stores to buy CHRISTMAS PRESENTS at this time of the calander year, then “Mery Christmas” is an appropriate saying. “

If it were in fact true, that the only people who were coming into the store were there to purchase CHRISTMAS PRESENTS, you would have a valid point.  But, the truth is that there are many people just coming into the store to buy groceries and other things that may not be related to Christmas and if they are not christians, their rights should be respected as well.  Wal-Mart is not a ‘Christmas items only’ store.

I find it odd that saying “Merry Christmas” to someone could have the potential to be so extremely offensive.....give me a friggin BREAK!!! I love how this country is up in arms to not force ideals on someone else, so we can’t be discriminatory towards gays making out in public, against a teenager that got drunk and knocked up wanting an abortion, but as soon as a Christian opens their mouth to acknowledge the Savior’s birth, a howl of dissent arises that rings through to heaven and back!!!!! Screw this country; screw this world!

Robert

I think the anti-Christianity crowd has gone completely insane and I am Agnostic!

Too many Americans lack even the most basic understanding of their history or their Constitution. Perhaps this is because they attend unconstitutional public schools. In any event, the Founders of the nation (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Hamilton, Madison, etc.) were not anti-religion. They firmly believed in the importance of a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles. They never intended for Americans to be anti-religion.

The Constitution says nothing about “seperation of Church and State”. That is a liberal invention. It has been repeated so many times that people assume it is true. Here is what our founding documents say about religion:

The Bill of Rights

Amendment I.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

What this clearly states is that Congress cannot pass a law that makes any religion the official religion of the US. The Founders wanted to avoid a theocracy. Therefore, the US has no official religion. Further, Congress is prohibited from interfering with religious expression. What this mens is that the government cannot tell people what religion they can join nor can the government keep the people from worshiping in any way they choose, or not at all.

Let’s review. The government cannot establish an official state religion. The government cannot prohibit the practice of religion. Very simple. Nothing in there about seperation of church and state.

Again, I am somewhere between Agnostic and Atheist. I believe in a moral society and in a nation based on Judeo-Christian beliefs because said society has proven to be the most tolerant, most free and most stable, not to mention the most prosperous. To me, it just makes sense.

If you are offended by religion, too bad. You do not have a Constitutional right to never be offended.

It’s best to be as tolerant as you can possibly be about someone’s beliefs. Having said that I am not a believer in that I don’t believe there is anything coming after this--which is kind of a belief too. So there. In any case like most families mine (wife and two kids) celebrates Christmas however I don’t think this merchandising that goes on every year is driven by secular people as opposed to those who do believe. From a corporate standpoint and not just WM this is very important time for them to make their hay and they are very cynical (again not just WM) in how they lay out their strategies in how to get the best of their opponents. For some it will make or break their whole year.  From a personal perspective one should know what one can afford to do and what not---what is reasonable and what is not--one should operate with these things always in mind.

Let’s see Robert likes communism and Ellis Wyat is an atheist, but they like to play Christians on Christmas at Wal-Mao where all the decorations are by Chinese slaves.

Good thing Jesus was not really born on December 25th and that was really a Roman day to worship the sun “the day of the invicible Sun"(look it up) that the Catholic church replaced with the birth of the savior to get the pagans in line with what was going on. They gave gifts sang songs when it was still a day for sun worship.

So its okay for atheists to pretend to be Christian on Christmas since Christmas itself is fake anyway.

Where does it say in scriptue to celebrate Christmas?
I still celebrate it, for family, but I know its not real.

You want to truly honor God, care about other people suffering thoughout the world. Be the opposite of what the Waltons are..until then

“Happy Invincible Day of the Sun!

Kathy,

The X is a bit misunderstood, and I really have no problem with XMas… But usually it needs explaining (unfortunately).
--
From: http://www.civilworld.com/fish.htm

Many early Christians were persecuted and forced to worship secretly. The fish symbol served as a secret form of communication. Often the persecuted Christians would scratch this symbol on the ground to identify themselves to fellow believers.

Soon, Christians began to attach meaning to the word “fish” itself. The Greek letters for ichthus (meaning “fish”, pronounced “ICK-THOOS") became an acronym: I=Jesus; X=Christ; O=God’s; Y=Son; E=Savior.
--

Now it seems that we can all bash religion, cover it up, worship satan (if you so believe there is one), we are told to have tolerance for everything that may offend us, but the moment someone hears the word Christ, God, Jesus, they are offended and lash out at the person using ‘those terms’.

I’m sorry Robert, but maybe you didn’t see the droves of CHRISTMAS shoppers out in front of every retail store, lining up at midnight to shop.  Sure, *some* may want a good deal for themselves, but most everyone is trying to buy Christmas presents when they go on sale.

I for one am not going to be concerned if I offend that small percentage that don’t wish to believe or have no tolerance for me, because frankly they don’t mind trying to offend me for my beliefs, except Ellis who is at least level headed about things, oh and my agnostic friend Syd that is as kind and easy-going as any other ‘god fearing’ person.

This entire season is was called the Christmas season and when I grew up, we were on Christmas break from school… then it slowly turned to the holiday season… next it will just be ‘that time off from school for kids to get out, get gifts from some fat-elf, and play in the snow, and for us all to get drunk and gorge on food’.

lol happy invincible sun day to you too sandra ;)

don’t forget that Dec. 25 was also a Zorastian holiday too. It was the day their saviour person was born to fight evil (hmm… reminds me of something...) Saviour person’s name: Mithra

Happy Mithra Day~

Nothing wrong with the Winter Equinox either.  Heck or Summer Solstice. People knew these changes of the seasons and were very ‘down to earth’.  The ‘pagan’ religion really was what? If I’m not mistaken it has a meaning of “religion of the people”...?
-
-
On another note of people running amok, I just found this.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-01-trimming-debate_x.htm

People but Christmas Trees, not a Holiday Trees.  This is how far this is going, and it’s too far.  People are trying to castrate the meaning of Christmas any way they can.

You don’t like it?  Don’t have a Christmas.  I don’t have a Hannukah (sp), I don’t have a Kwanzaa, or a host of other religious holidays.

The problem is that someone, a long time back made a lot of money promoting the buying and selling of presents and made a pretty store display.  It’s much like a box if Kleenex.  They need to protect their name, so you don’t walk into a store and ask for Kleenex, it’s a Tissue, UNLESS you buy the Kleenex brand tissue.  If Christians are not careful and FIGHT for what is theirs, it will be hijacked. It’s that simple.

I think David is putting a band-aid on the problem.

I dont think a title should be used at all, The best idea is that ‘Greeters’ should just welcome customers as customers, then, if customers complain they arnt welcomed in a religous way, that is the time we update our efforts.
Thank you, Tim Hoogarth - ADSA United Kingdom

I’m sorry if I offend you JC, as I don’t subscribe to the WM Can Do No Wrong, or the WM World Order newsletters.

Aside from that, if you’d actually read what I wrote instead of disregarding it out of hand, because you possibly can’t truly contemplate what was written; you may note that I didn’t mention Wal-Mart or any other retailer.  But I suppose you’d need to take off your blinders to see what anything but “Go Wal-Mart!” “Yea Wal-Mart!”

While it is less funny than “The Onion”, I was sure that you would take the “band-aid” comment entirely within the contaxt of the Kleenex reference you made. Ah, never mind. Have a can of coke (even if it is Pepsi-brand coke) and relax.

Ellis wrote:

“ I think the anti-Christianity crowd has gone completely insane and I am Agnostic! “

I am not against religous freedom, but, I think it is the Christians that are causing most of the problems with this, I’ll explain my reasoning.

“ “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; “

I believe that when the Government endorses one religion over another, it is in effect establishing that religion to be the religion the country recognizes as favored.  Because the Government has done this in the past, the Christians have claimed this country as belonging to them and them only and are allowing every other religion to be here out of the goodness of their hearts.  How many times have you heard the phrase “this is a Christian country!!”?  Why have they pushed to have God printed on our money and in our pledge, want prayer in schools and pushed for laws that co-inside with their beliefs?

No one I know, has ever advocated against the free exercise of their personal religions.  All they have ever said, is that that practice remain in the home, place of worship and anywhere else that is not owned by the citizenry as a whole.  As Wal-Mart is a publicly owned company, I believe that the observance of religion should not be forced on employees.  And, for a Jew, to have to say “Merry Christmas” might be offensive to them, just as not hearing “Merry Christmas” might be offensive to a Christian.  Therefore, I believe that Wal-Mart using the judgement rule, is being fair t everyone, as it should be.

By the way, I find no religion or greeting offensive, as long as it is not filled with hatred and the greeting is given in a friendly manner.  What I do find offensive, is people who think they are better than others and use hate to put others down.

“ I believe in a moral society and in a nation based on Judeo-Christian beliefs because said society has proven to be the most tolerant, most free and most stable, not to mention the most prosperous. To me, it just makes sense. “

I agree with you on this, as long as it doesn’t interfer with the rights of others.  After all, isn’t this country ‘A melting pot’?

Sandra wrote:

“ Let’s see Robert likes communism and Ellis Wyat is an atheist, “

Get it right, will you.  Ellis Wyatt said he was agnostic and you were the one who advocated communisim, not me.  You made the statement about how the Bible said that people should live together, own nothing and share everything, that’s communisim.  Remember, I believe in democracy and Capitalism.

smk wrote:

“ don’t forget that Dec. 25 was also a Zorastian holiday too. “

I had also heard that it was the pagan celebration of the ‘Winter Solstice’.  But, as that is a celebration of the sun, I guess it could also be known as “invincible sun day”!!

well… the solstice is on the 21 or 22, but pretty darn close ^.^b What I like about the Holidays (holy + days… love that word) is that they celebrate life and renewal in the season of cold death. That’s what all the holidays are about, no matter what the religion. Celebrating life. *warm fuzzy feelings* now, I’m gonna go put up my decorations, and throw snowballs at my friends… yay! snow!

yay! randomness!

wal-mart does not suck they have been providing us with high quality goods at low prices. this site is nothing but a bunch of German propaganda! What good cause are you guys aiming for, walmart isnt going anywhere anytime soon. this site is a scam, why would any one contribute to this, what are u doing with the money??? its plain and simple u guys are keeping it for your selves.

Let me begin by saying that I believe everyone should be allowed to practice what ever religion they chose to practice, but I would like for someone- anyone- to show me where in the constitution it gives you freedom FROM religion. Why is it that the rights of those that do not want are always put above the rights of those that want. Two that come immediately to mind:  The rights of the none smoker who doesn’t want to smell smoke, are placed above the rights of the smoker to smoke if they chose to. The rights of a handful of people that are offended by the word God are placed above the rights of those that love and worship a god.

“In God we trust” first appeared on American money in 1864 and has appeared on all money since 1956 when they began printing it on paper money not just coinage. This the mottow of our great country does not say “In a christtian God we trust” simply “In God we Trust” Lets face it every religion has a “GOD” Even the agnostic who doesn’t necessarily believe in God believes there is a higher power, that leaves the athiests so for a hand full of the population their rights are more important then those that have a GOD? Why is their right to not have a god more important then my right to worship one? Why should I have to hide what I want so he/she is not offended?

On that same line though those of you screaming that it’s wrong for retailers to say “happy holidays” instead of “merry christmas” How would you feel if you was checking out of a store and the cashier who happens to be Jewish said “happy hannakha” or the african american cashier said “happy kawanzaa” or the cashier that is wiccian chose to say “happy winter soltice” to you? Why do you feel that “merry christmas” is universally acceptable to everyone in a public setting?

And for those of you that said you do not believe in christmas but celebrate it anyway I can only assume you don’t stand for anything except what the retailers have turned christmas into. Yes Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, even if it is not his actual birthdate it is still the celebration of his birth, if you chose not to believe in christmas as the birth of christ then you should forgo the holiday and go to work so that those of us that do want to celebrate it with our families can have the day off with our families.

Walmart is a world wide organization and must remain conscious of this.  The majority of the world still has different practices other than ‘christmas’ which is an ancient tradition that has its roots in Siberian shamanism.  The colors associated with ‘christmas’ red and white are actually a representation of of the aminita mascera mushroom.  Santa is also borrowed from the Caucuses, mistletoe from the Celts, yule log from the Goths, the time from the Visigoth and the tree from the worship of Baal.  It is a wide wide world.

Lori wrote:

“ Let me begin by saying that I believe everyone should be allowed to practice what ever religion they chose to practice, but I would like for someone- anyone- to show me where in the constitution it gives you freedom FROM religion. “

It would seem with the statement “freedom FROM religion”, you are saying that everyone is required to have some sort of religious belief, and if you don’t, you aren’t entitled to any rights.  A lot of people have claimed that “atheism” IS a religion.  It is a fact, that throughout the world, “atheists” out number Christians.  Christianity, is not even the world’s largest religion.

As for the “God” on the money issue, I can’t understand why anyone would choose to put “God’s” name on a thing that has been referred to as ‘evil’.  Putting ‘God’s” name on anything suggests a reverence for that item, do we really want to put forth the image that we worship money? I myself, could care less what is printed on money, as long as it is worth the amount I need to pay for things, but, Christians have claimed that the “God” we trust in, is their God, not all gods.

I, myself, just have a problem with anything that causes division between Americans.  We are the United States of America, not the Christian States of America.  All citizens should be equal and all rights should apply to all equally.

Otherwise, I agree with every other thing you wrote, thanks Lori.

I would like to voice my opinion about the Merry Christmas greeting at WalMart.  I shop at WalMart a LOT and wish to make it something that I can be proud of.  Let us all keep CHRIST in CHRISTMAS with a big MERRY CHRISTMAS greeting to all.  There seems to be a big movement to erase all Christian teachings in this country and we seem to be moving in that direction.  It reminds me of the old Russia that we used to hear about.  May God keep you in His Grace.  Have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

Lori all I’m saying is the celebration of Christmas is not required in scripture, only the observance of the last supper when Jesus said do this “in remembrance of me”. There is nothing scriptural about exchanging gifts, trees, Santa, yes it does tell the story of his birth which was NOT on Decemeber 25th, which yes, is just a substituted Pagan Holiday of the Romans, when Rome was blending pagan and Christian doctrine.

I do not think it is necessarily wrong to celebrate Christmas but it is not scripturally required. Jesus would want us to celebrate his life not just his birth, through caring about our brothers and sisters all year, by not supporting wars, sweat shop labor, keeping a clean environment to show thanks for the earth we are given.

Christmas is a man made tradition, like Thanksgiving, and there is no Bible principal that says we must celebrate it.

The giving of gifts is supposed to represent the giving to each other as Christ would have us do; not beating each other up for a lap-top at Wal-Mao. That is more like a Roman tradition. Beating each other up for hedonistic materialism does not serve to create respect for a Holi-day but rather trashes any idealism it may retain.

Ultimately spirit of Christmas is in decline when we witness things such as this.

Robert sez: “ It is a fact, that throughout the world, �atheists� out number Christians.  Christianity, is not even the world�s largest religion. “

Christianity is indeed the world’s largest religion. You have to remember those Catholics!

Please see this map:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

(Many confuse the fact of Islam being the fastest growing with the non-fact that it is the largest).

You can also check other maps and polls: the results are all similar.

The number with the Atheist faith is just a few percent, in all of the polls. I’ve seen it list as low as less than 2%, or as high as 8% (see the first map/page I link to).

Please see also the Gallup poll results:

http://www.gallup-international.com/ContentFiles/millennium15.asp

The problem with “freedom FROM religion”, as used by many, is that it becomes an ideal that involves censoring and suppressing everyone else’s religious expression.

THANK YOU, KIRBY IN BENTONVILLE!!!! i was waiting for someone to bring up the Amanitas Muscaria! the only psychedelic mushroom that is NOT illegal anywhere in the entire world!! and archaelogy shows it to have been the original sacrament of the ancient Hindus, Buddhists, and possibly even Christianity!! ;)

Robert said:
It would seem with the statement “freedom FROM religion”, you are saying that everyone is required to have some sort of religious belief, and if you don’t, you aren’t entitled to any rights.
I did not say that that the person without a religious faith is not entitled to any rights. Are you saying that the person with religious beliefs should be denighed their rights in order to not infringe on the rights of those who have no belief’s? In every day of our lives there are issues where people are not going to have the same out look on things. Does that mean one has to give up with thier belief’s no but sometimes we MUST accept the differences of others and tolerate those differences. And we really aren’t talking about world religion we are talking about religion in the United States. I just don’t think that everyone that beieves that Christmas is the celebration of the birth of christ should have to celebrate that belief in hiding so that non believers rites are honored. What about the rights of the believers.

And Sandra:
No there is nothing scriptural that says we must celebrate Christmas but there was an exchange of gifts at the birth of christ so don’t say there is nothing in the scriptures about the exchange of gifts. And while it is not required to celebrate the birth of christ who would you be preaching about if he had not been born. He was a miricle birth, born of a virgin, half man half God. If that is not a birth worth celebrating then nothing is. I know it is not the actual date of his birth but since there is nothing that says the exact date then this is the date that has been chosen. If celebrating christmas makes people think of Christ and what he done for us then it is a good thing to celebrate. What happened over a bunch of wortheless laptops is bad and it is ugly but it is the way the human race is moving in this day and age. It is not any one company, person, or holidays fault. What would you like to see a return to the stone age maybe? How far back does humanity have to travel in time for you to be less miserable with the life you lead?

...German propaganda?

Mushrooms?

I, myself, just have a problem with anything that causes division between Americans.
Robert Springer in Springdale, Ar.
Friday, December 02 at 11:05 AM

As WM bullies its way into another community and divides the people of the town, Robert will be on the sidelines cheering for WM, so much for practicing what we preach!

I don’t know if it’s all that important to me what anybody’s religious beliefs are here. I assume that most do believe and that’s okay. I would point out though that people have been torturing and killing each other precisely over these questions of what they do or don’t believe in for centuries--not that they or anyone has ever known the real truth while they were (are) living and breathing.
As far as religious symbols I don’t see why anyone whether they believe or not should be offended by them--to me that’s a sign of an intolerant attitude.

I second Della! German propaganda? What’s that all about??

It’s odd that when people want to talk about fascists they talk about the Germans as though everyone in that country was an evil, Jew murdering *******. Why don’t they talk about the Italians the same way, if they’re gonna make sweeping generalizations?

If you really want to talk about the masters of propaganda, lets talk Creel Commission and the Red Scare in the 1920s. The US is just as good at propaganda as the Nazis or the Stalinists. Maybe even better.

How about this, instead of saying “German propaganda” say what you really mean. “Left-wing-hippy-fascist-communist-mushroom-eating-weed-smoking-sign-carying-freak-person propaganda”. Or to shorten it a bit, “Non-conformer’s propaganda”.

Except that the weed smokers wouldn’t fit in with the other people cause I swear, pot heads are the mellowest people in the universe.

Legalize it!

Jesus it just all right with me too Doobie Brothers!

Those Neo-cons must like to watch that old movie “Reefer Madness”

Lori wrote:

“ I did not say that that the person without a religious faith is not entitled to any rights. Are you saying that the person with religious beliefs should be denighed their rights in order to not infringe on the rights of those who have no belief’s? “

If you would have read my post with some sort of understanding, you would have seen that I did not say that believers should be denied any rights at all.  I believe in full rights for all American citizens.  What I said, is that they should not use publicly owned sites to practice it.  If, it is ever decided that a religion can use a public place to practice a religion, then all religions should also be allowed to use that place.  The problem lies, not with religion itself, but, rather with organized religion.  It promotes division between people.  A good example of this is the Islamic religion in Afganistan promotes hatred for the U.S., calling Americans as ‘evil’ and saing that God tells them we must be destroyed.  As far as religions within the U.S., each religion thinks it knows the correct way to please God, and says the others are wrong and they will end up in hell.  Where is the respect for others beliefs there?  And, how do most Christians really feel about jews, agnostics and athiests?

NTD wrote:

“ As WM bullies its way into another community and divides the people of the town, Robert will be on the sidelines cheering for WM, so much for practicing what we preach! “

First off, I don’t go to other towns to support Wal-Mart openings.  Next, Wal-Mart doesn’t bully anything, like I said before, if the store is not wanted, it will close for lack of customers.  If people shop there, it will stay open and therefore was wanted.  As for Wal-Mart dividing people, that is untrue.  It is the peoples opinions on subjects that divide them, not Wal-Mart.

larry wrote:

“ As far as religious symbols I don’t see why anyone whether they believe or not should be offended by them--to me that’s a sign of an intolerant attitude. “

I am not offended by any religious symbols.  I just think that if a Cross of Jesus is allowed in a courthouse, a Star of David and a Budda statue should be allowed too, as well as any other religious symbol.

Actually I agree with where you’re going in these last two messages of yours Robert and just because a person does not or finds he no longer believes in a so-called creator does not mean he or she has no moral compass. It’s also not something you have to be proud of--it just is at least for me.

larry - I just believe that we all should try to get along with everyone else, no matter what their beliefs are, what color their skin is, what country they were born in, etc.  As long as they are ‘good’ people, they are all right with me.  But, if they are ‘bad’ people, it also doesn’t matter what their beliefs, color, etc. is, I won’t associate with them.  By ‘bad’ people, I mean, crooks, thieves, and people in general, who think that they can take advantage of other people, no matter what their reasoning is.  Like when a tenant screws his landlord, because the landlord has more money than he does or when a friend borrows money and doesn’t pay it back, because “He has more money than I do, so he doesn’t need it back”.

Why don’t you people stay on topic or just SHUT UP?  The topic thread was- WAL-MART: Always Backpedaling. Always.

The “cross of Jesus is allowed in a courthouse”, “a Star of David and a Budda statue,” “religious symbols,” “Islamic religion in Afganistan,” “celebration of the Winter Solstice,” “the Red Scare in the 1920s,” “fascist-communist-mushroom-eating-weed-smoking...” What does any of this have to do with Wal-Mart?

If you ask me (and even if you don’t), I’d say many of you have either gotten into some bad mushrooms, or are a couple of tokes “over the line.” Stick to the topic!

Tom Boese
Field Producer - Wisconsin
Brave New Films

Face it Tom.

Our subjects are more interesting than yours.

Tom Boese wrote:

“ The “cross of Jesus is allowed in a courthouse”, “a Star of David and a Budda statue,” “religious symbols,” “Islamic religion in Afganistan,” “celebration of the Winter Solstice,” “the Red Scare in the 1920s,” “fascist-communist-mushroom-eating-weed-smoking...” What does any of this have to do with Wal-Mart? “

What it has to do with Wal-Mart, is that it all shows how problems can occur when one group of people try to tell others how to live, much the same as the unions are trying to tell Wal-Mart how to run it’s business.  As for Wal-Mart ‘backpedaling’, this is not true, all they have been doing is trying to clear the air about the untruths they think your movie and WMW are promoting.

Tom in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin

OK on topic tom, show me where it is in writing anyplace that Walmart forbids it’s employees from saying Merry Christmas. On topic, explain to me how the article shows back peddeling. On topic again, explain to me how it is bad for a company-any company-to attempt to not offend it’s customers? In this world of political correct mail carriers (not mailmen), fire fighters (not firemen), and police officers (instead of police men) and a country where there are law suits to remove “one nation under god” from the pledge and complaints about “in god we trust” on our money why in the hell is it wrong for walmart to encourage it’s employees to use the phrase “happy holidays” instead of “merry christmas”? I have seen NOTHING that stated walmart would fire anyone or discipline anyone for saying “marry chirstmas” only that they encourage it. So EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS BACK PEDALING?????

OK Robert...let’s go with your statement: “problems can occur when one group of people try to tell others how to live...”

I can show you two smaller communities in Wisconsin that have both said “NO” to Wal-Mart in voting by their city councils.  One of these communities has actually said “NO” twice to a Wal-Mart Supercenter.  However, Wal-Mart’s developer has just brought the issue back for a third time.  What part of “NO” doesn’t Wal-Mart get?  Who’s telling who how to live?

Tom Boese
Field Producer - Wisconsin
Brave New Films

lori ofmiss. wrote that “in God we trust” is the motto of our country. WRONG!!!  the motto of our country is “E PLURIBU UNUM”, that’s latin for “from many one”. You must have missed that day in history class.

Lori in Mississippi:  Christmas or Happy Holidays?  This is just another dumb ass issue that people like you want to discuss instead of the real issues surrounding Wal-Mart.  As far as I’m concerned it’s totally irrelevant how anyone chooses to greet someone at this time of the year.

These are the issues I’m interested in:
1) Wal-Mart’s typical policy of intimidating small-town, part-time city councils with their “bags of money,” and then threatening to deal with the town 12 miles up the road if the city council drags its feet or doesn’t capitulate to Wal-Mart’s demands.

2) Wal-Mart’s encouragement of its workers to use public welfare and tax payer supported Medicaid programs to get their health insurance, instead of providing this themselves for ALL of their employees.

3) Wal-Mart’s policy of using more part-time workers instead of hiring more full-time workers so that workers have a harder time qualifying for health benefits.

4) Wal-Mart’s systematic and systemic policy of managers deleting overtime hours from employees’ timecards.

5) Wal-Mart’s policy of importing goods into this country made by sweatshop workers making as little as $.17 or $.18 an hour, in places like China and Bangladesh, while the textile workers in this country are put out of work.  (yeah, yeah, I know...Wal-Mart isn’t the only one doing this.  Does it make it OK then?)

6) Wal-Mart’s history and pattern of discrimination toward women employees.

7) Wal-Mart’s obsession with keeping unions out of their stores to the point where they bring in a special team from Bentonville, complete with a corporate jet and camera package on the roof to monitor the activity of employees who might be trying to organize.  (What is Wal-Mart afraid of?  If they are paying their employees so well and treating them right, wouldn’t the employees throw the union out on their own?)

Tom Boese
Field Producer - Wisconsin
Brave New Films

robert durham in redford, mich.
lori ofmiss. wrote that “in God we trust” is the motto of our country. WRONG!!!  the motto of our country is “E PLURIBU UNUM”, that’s latin for “from many one”. You must have missed that day in history class.

I guess it was you that missed history class.
Quoted from
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm

Chase picked to have “In God We Trust” used on some of the coins.  The phrase was a subtle reminder that the Union was on the side of God regarding slavery. Congress passed legislation. Since a 1837 Act of Congress specified the mottos and devices that were to be placed on U.S. coins, it was necessary to pass another Act to enable the motto to be added. This was done on 1886-APR-22. “The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since” 1908-JUL-1. 3

I have worked at Wal-Mart for nine years and every Christmas I have always said Merry Christmas to my customers.  Management has more important things to do than to try to keep a watch on what we say to our customers when we thank them.  Happy Hoildays is just amuch faster way of getting all the holidays(thanksgiving, christmas and new year) said when answering the hundreds of calls wal-mart receives in one day during the holidays.  I love my lord Jesus, and I would never leave him out of Christmas.  I think Wal-Mart is great company that does not need any union trying to make BIG MONEY off it’s associates.

Thank you for the history lesson on coins Lori in Mississippi.  Now would you care to intelligently address any of the 7 talking points I suggested?

Tom Boese
Field Producer - Wisconsin
Brave New Films

I would probably think she doesn’t want to discuss those Tom. It would be welcome if any other Pro WM’er would.

In any case I wouldn’t mind commenting on a couple. On No. 5 there has been something seriously wrong with our country’s trade policy for a long time. And it didn’t just start with former President Clinton’s support of the Nafta agreement. The bulk of those watching Fox Tv and listening to the likes of Limbaugh like to make out that that agreement and those subsequent to that were the work of the democrats when the truth is the bulk of the democrats at least those in the House were dead set against it. The fact is under the first Bush administration the stage was set for the Nafta vote when congress gave him (the first Bush) fast track authority. In any case this has allowed big business in this country (and WM is representative of big business) to turn our country from it’s history of being an economy that produces into just being a society that consumes and that has a lot of ramifications. It’s pretty much allowed them (big business)to get around our wage and enviromental standards by exploiting the labor of people elsewhere. WM for one has taken great advantage of this and to comment briefly on 2 and 3 it hasn’t been of great benefit to their own employees---they’ve only enriched their major stockholders (including the Walton clan) and their upper management.

As for No. 4 and No. 6---the number of lawsuits and class action lawsuits against WM speak for themselves. No doubt WM is planning to tie these up for a long time in a very slow and methodical legal system but it is a tidal wave that is coming in their direction and the longer it is put off the more powerful it is going to be when it finally hits---that’s my opinion anyway.

And on 7. The anti-democratic nature of WM in its response to workers and their right to be represented. This has come up time and again but the way those on the Pro WM side of the debate represent their anti-union rhetoric really makes me wonder. How fair is it when the Gatineau Que. WM workers vote for a union and find themselves out of a job the next week or the meatcutters in Texas--and WM then cuts out all meatcutters nationwide?--which is anti-democratic. Yet we have people come on here all the time to say that nowhere has a union won a vote against WM. They lament union dues. They say WM workers can speak up for themselves. If you say a union would help them---raise their wages and get benefits such as health care (just for two things) it doesn’t seem to register or is totally ignored. If you say well if WM just raised their employees wages as a strategy just to shut some people up and maybe to fend off the union talk---all of a sudden they can’t afford it---they won’t be able to expand--their stock will plummet. So if WM and its supporters don’t want to budge then IMO they deserve the criticism they get for it.

larry sez: “ President Clinton�s support of the Nafta agreement”

About NAFTA, I’ve done checking, and find poll after poll where the majority of the American public and the majority of the Mexican public support it. Precious few of these members-of-the-public are corporate plutocrats. It is disingenious to mention “big business” all the time in NAFTA discussions.

Larry sez: “And on 7. The anti-democratic nature of WM in its response to workers and their right to be represented. “

Democracy is for controlling government, not for controlling our lives. If you have party at your house, do you hold a vote on what to serve and when to end the party? Must the surf store have a vote on which boards to sell?

Larry sez: “If you say a union would help them---raise their wages and get benefits such as health care (just for two things) it doesn�t seem to register or is totally ignored”

I’m not one to ignore that. The fact overlooked is that the cost of this has to come from somewhere. It can come from other benefits being cut. Most often it comes from attrition of the workforce: if you have a limited amount of money to spend on wages, and have to spend more for each person, you have to reduce the number of people being paid (either by firing or not hiring). The stores often attempt to get more money to pay for this (here comes inflation!) but this can be self destructive as it drives away business.

You then get a greatly increased real chance that the store will be closed due to business realities: a store with higher prices, and poor service (since it can’t afford to hire more workers) does not compete as well.

Yeah, you get a unionized Wal-Mart, but it is one that is shedding hundreds of stores a year, and “doing the GM thing” with its workforce, while a resurgent K-Mart and Target eat its lunch.

As for #6, the “discrimination against women”. The big thing clouding the issue is the frivolous lawsuit. It contains over a million people, almost all of which never consented to be included in the suit. I’d like to see it pared down to just those with a legitimate grievance.

Larry in Elmira, NY:  It’s good to finally see some intelligent posting going on here.  I don’t say this simply because I agree with you.  I think you and I are the only ones here who know what “fast track authority” refers to.  jc, Lori, and robert Springer will all have to look it up!

Speaking of “looking things up,” jc said: “About NAFTA, I’ve done checking, and find poll after poll where the majority of the American public and the majority of the Mexican public support it.  Would you care to share your sources jc?  Have you taken a poll lately?

Tom Boese
Field Producer - WI
Brave New Films

larry wrote:

“ WM workers vote for a union and find themselves out of a job the next week or the meatcutters in Texas--and WM then cuts out all meatcutters nationwide? “

This has been shown to be false, so why use it?  Our local Sam’s Club still has meatcutters.

“ If you say a union would help them---raise their wages and get benefits such as health care (just for two things) it doesn’t seem to register or is totally ignored. “

Remember, there is no guarantee of anything with a union.  Things have to be negociated.  As jc said, some things may have to be given up to recieve better wages and health care benefits.  Don’t act like things are automatic with a union.  It is so easy to say something without looking at the ramifications of the statement.  Take this for example:  If Wal-mart were to give each employee a $.25 an hour raise.  At $.25 times 32 hours a week (what some claim most employees get), it would be $8.00 more a week per employee (this would surely take them out of poverty, wouldn’t it?), but would cost the company $12 million a week in extra wages or $624 million a year.  So, is it really worth it to either the employee or Wal-Mart to do this?  Think about it, that would be only $416.00 more a year per employee, before taxes.  And, what if the employee had to give up their 10% discount to get this, would it still be worth it?  Or, if some employees had to be let go and the remaining employees had to pick up the extra work, would it still be worth it?

Tom asks for NAFTA polls:

November 2002 Ipsos-Reid poll: 48% of respondents said that the United States has been a �winner� as a result of NAFTA and 37% felt that the United States was a �loser.as a result of NAFTA.�

May 2000 Gallup poll: 47% said NAFTA has been good for the US, while 39% said it has been bad.

October 1999 PIPA poll:  a plurality of 44% viewed NAFTA as good for the US and 30% saw it as bad.

MEXICO:

Global Views 2004: 50% of Mexicans say NAFTA is good for Mexican business (compared to 39% who say it is bad). 49% say it is good for creation of Mexican jobs (36% bad). 41% say it helps standard of living (compared to 35% bad).

CANADA: I had not checked into it before, but now I looked up the Canadian figures. They dislike NAFTA more than they like it. I can cite specific polls for you if you want. However, I don’t think you will even ask for that: you only challenge information you don’t agree with.

I do know what fast track authority is, thank you.

Tom in Menomonmee Falls, Wisconsin
I was responding to a direct insult to me that said I did not know the countries motto and when I sent my post yours was not there. Here is a response to your points:

1) You need to make up your mind one minute you say Walmart bullies it’s way into towns that do not want them then you turn around and say they try to bribe their way into small town america and if the part-time city councils don’t take the money fast enough they threaten to go up the road. Which is it do they force their way into town or do they leave when the town don’t act fast enough.
2) I have seen one time where it was stated that Walmart encourared it’s employees to use the welfare system and that was at the opening of a new store when the waiting period had not been reached yet. I don’t know of any company that offers insurance from day one of employment, why should they. Show me where it is company policy to encourage use of the welfare healthcare system.
3) Yes you are right Walmart hires part time workers just to keep from paying for health insurance? No I don’t think so I would have to say it is more for the reason that they or any other retailer would rather give part timers more hours when they are need someone then to lay off or fire people when they are not needed. Name me one retailer that does not hire a lot of part time help that way hours are more flexible as needed.
4) If this is true then they should be turned for it. There are laws against it. When the some employees here where I work felt there was illegal use of comp time they reported it to the labor board and an investigation led to the company having to pay some overtime. If I worked overtime and it vanished from my time card I would call the labor board and get it looked into. What I can’t figure out is why this company policy hasn’t been reported and dealt with already. Could it be it’s not the massive problem or company policy that you are claiming.
5) Maybe if the prices in America were not so inflated by unions then Walmart (and all the others doing it) wouldn’t have to go to China and other countries to get affordable products. They do buy american when ever they can do so affordably.
6) Ok so there is a class action suit against walmart now unless I have missed something I have not see a judgement in the that case yet. Just because someone says something does not make it true. How many people that are in that class action suit actually worked at walmart and were actually truely discriminated against? Years ago I took vioxx and because of that I still get mail from greedy lawyers telling me I’m entitled to money for it. Every female that was ever on Walmarts payroll has probably recieved letters from multiple greedy lawyers hoping to get a piece of the walmart pie. I think I’ll wait to decide that they discriminate.
7) As for Walmart not wanting the union - -well hell I would go out of my way to keep the union out too. I would do what ever I had to if I owned a company to keep the union from coming in and distroying my business. Just because a company wants to deal with it’s employees one on one does not make them an evil empire.

Now for the one no one seems to want to answer. I’ve asked several times about the people in america that do not work for walmart that need to put food on the table and clothes on their backs. When you get done driving walmart out of business or force them to raise their prices to the level YOU think is acceptable where do those on a fixed income or who struggle to make ends get food and clothes?  You get what you want and millions of americans starve to death or go without. That’s not the american way it’s the union way.

jc: Not a very strong argument for NAFTA or CAFTA.  The polls you vite are 3-6 years old.  In the Mexican poll, only half thought NAFTA was good.  In Canada you admit NAFTA is mostly disliked.  I’d like to see a national poll taken today.  I’m sure the results would be less than impressive.

If you know what fast track authority is jc...do you think this is a good way to ramrod something as complex as NAFTA?

Tom Boese
Field Producer - WI
Brave New Films

JC---just to see if I got you right---you’re for respecting the democratic rights of citiizens outside the work place but not inside?--or in other words what a boss or his proxies say or do inside the workplace is all up to them--their employees check their (all?) rights at the door? Outside the work place then accepted law in general can kick in?

As far as polls go a great place to go for that would be www.aei.org which compares all kinds of polls from different sources at different times. In actuality keep in mind you brought up the subject of polls. Here we must make a distinction though and that is between what the public actually knows (which can be manipulated---for a recent example look at the war in Iraq) and what it thinks it knows.

According to NBCnews/Wall St. Journal polls conducted in 97 and 2003 45% of those asked about Nafta were unsure if it had had any impact at all or they didn’t think that it had had any impact--->which tells me that they spend any of their real free time thinking about.

Zogby in 97 and 2003 has more than a quarter of their respondents saying they didn’t know if The Nafta created or lost more jobs.
The 2003 Zogby poll asks if Nafta is good 37% bad 33% not sure 29% and then asks if Nafta has created more jobs 19%
lost more jobs 55% !!!!! or not sure 26%.
And Los Angeles times Polls between 1982 and 1997 have those polled consistently saying by 2-1 margins and more that our govt. should be restricting imports into our country.

As to the gender discrimination lawsuit--something with over a million plaintiffs is not frivolous and I can tell you WM’s lawyers are not going to treat it that way (except in how they present it to the public) because it could do irreparable harm to the company.

And to Robert on unions and the benefits that come with unions---one is expecting too much if one thinks that all of a sudden his or her wages are going to double and all kinds of benefits are going to drop out of the sky. One tends to gain with unions though-- but these gains tend to come over time.
There are two sides to all negotiations. There is usually if not always some kind of arbitration mechanism that’s applied in case everything stalemates. Tradeoffs happen between management and worker positions. And usually the gains when made by unions slow down (to the point of stagnation)over time.

I’m not dure what this whole exchange is about anymore, but does anyone else hate Lori as much as I do? 

It’s endlessly befuddling how someone like her - and those like her - gets by in the world.  First, there’s the endless praise for an imaginary man in the sky; now that’s funny.  Second, the pro-capitalist, Walmart-loving.  Then there’s the hatred or simple disregard for fellow human beings. And, Lori, only an anti-feminist fool who has no self-respect would think it’s appropriate to call a WOMAN letter-carrier a MailMAN.  Now Brendan, I have to go get drunk, knocked up, and a have myself yet another speedy abortion :)

Larry in Elmira:  Your last posting further validates or clarifies what I was trying to say-- polls can either be misleading or unreliable.  jc was in fact the one who brought up polls when he said, “About NAFTA, I’ve done checking, and find poll after poll...”

CAFTA, like NAFTA is more of the same.  CAFTA was passed back in July.  This is per the Common Dreams News Center, http://www.commondreams.org “In the final tally, which was 217 to 215, a full 15 Democrats voted in favor of big business by supporting CAFTA, while 25 Republicans defied the Bush Administration and voted against it.” So to say “the majority of the American public and the majority of the Mexican public support it,” is very misleading.

Next topic:  The class action lawsuit.  A while back, someone did a posting to “educate” all of us on how these class action suits work.  I don’t deny that there has been some “piling on.” Maybe a good number of the women who are a party to the suit, don’t even know what it’s all about.  What I take exception with is when people like jc proclaim the lawsuit to be “frivolous” and “without merit.” I’ll trust the legal minds ie.-- judges who are reviewing the matter, over your opinions any day jc.

Tom Boese
Field Producer - Wisconsin
Brave New Films

larry wrote:

“ One tends to gain with unions though-- but these gains tend to come over time.
There are two sides to all negotiations. There is usually if not always some kind of arbitration mechanism that’s applied in case everything stalemates. Tradeoffs happen between management and worker positions. And usually the gains when made by unions slow down (to the point of stagnation)over time “

Basically I have said what you have said, before, about negotiations.  And, because there are two sides to negotiations, some times it becomes “give and take”, “win some, lose some”.  Also, in cases where a large company is involved, and things have to go into arbitration, what does the union do?  Go on strike!!  And, if both sides are stubborn enough, a strike could last for weeks, and in extreme cases, even months.  Who is the winner here?  The employee loses lots of wages and may fall way behind on their bills.  How much of a raise would they have to get to make up for those lost wages?  Remember, a $.25 an hour raise is equal to $10.00 before taxes for a 40 hour week.  And, the company would lose, not only sales, but customers as well.  Usually, as the company ends up with a larger loss, they give in to the demands of the union, but, in the end, the only one who doesn’t lose, is the union itself.

larry sez: “As to the gender discrimination lawsuit--something with over a million plaintiffs is not frivolous”

It is nothing but frivolous if almost all of these million plaintiffs never signed on and don’t even know they are suing.

tom sez: “CAFTA, like NAFTA is more of the same”

It is true. Both are great ideas and let the people of both countries make more decisions for themselves. Even if the polls were against them (instead of for them, as they are). I would be in favor of both, because each person gets to decide.

Larry asked: “JC---just to see if I got you right---you�re for respecting the democratic rights of citiizens outside the work place but not inside?”

You need to reword that: I am for democratic rights of citizens to control government, but I am not in favor of government forcing its idea of “democracy” on our private lives. How we run our OWN homes and businesses is our business. The guests who visit do not have a right to vote in how it is run.

larry asks: “or in other words what a boss or his proxies say or do inside the workplace is all up to them--their employees check their (all?) rights at the door?”

Very roughly, yes. The employees are mere guests at the place. They have no rights to run it. Just as the employees can run their own houses and set “house rules” as they see fit.

The problem is with ludicrous laws in which the government meddles in private lives and private affairs. The “minimum wage” law is silly and obtrusive. It is like a law that would require you to serve each guest at a house party at least 5 bottles of beer.

This has nothing to do with “the law”. It has everything to do with how someone runs their own property. No Constitutional rights or any sort of real rights are being curtailed.

I’m a follower of Jesus Christ, God come to Earth as a man.

I say Merry Christmas and give gifts to believers and non believers alike.

Companies like Wal Mart are guilty of abusing the free enterprise system and are a threat to our freedom!!!

Big Red